In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to walk through Genesis 1 and 2 and discuss what it means for our identity as human beings in God's creation.
Questions we'll answer in this episode:
Resources We Mentioned:
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In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to walk through Genesis 1 and 2 and discuss what it means for our identity as human beings in God's creation.
Questions we'll answer in this episode:
Resources We Mentioned:
Sign up to receive Bible study guides, handouts, and resources that complement what you learn in this podcast by going to WomenChurchPodcast.com
Welcome to the women in church podcast where we take a fresh look at what the Bible teaches about women in church, for the ICRC, I am Travis Albritton. Joining me as always is Corina spay Whoa,
Corina Espejo:Hello again,
Travis Albritton:man's. For this episode, we also have another guest, Jason Alexander, welcome to the podcast. Yes, thank you. super exciting. So for anyone who's listening who isn't familiar with you, just give us kind of a quick, one minute auto biography of who you are how you serve within the ICSC. And then your your Scholastic academic background as well when it comes to Bible study.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, it's pretty, pretty amazing. So, yeah, I'm a Midwesterner from Illinois, but most of my life in Wisconsin, d minus student in high school. So it took me a while to figure out what I'm interested in. I went back to school in my early 20s, and fell in love with reading, reading Semitic languages, and it just so happened there was a kind of a top flight department in my backyard in Madison. So yeah, I I joined and spent a lot of time and money there and made it out alive. intact. So yeah, so I'm using that as a as a way to think through the Bible and how Christians are interacting specifically with the Old Testament.
Travis Albritton:Well, and you also when you were serving in the ministry in the Midwest, you were part of the the teachers group, the teaching group there.
Jason Alexander:Yep. I'm still affiliated, even though I live on the other side of the map now. But yeah, I still I still like up with those guys. Yeah, the teachers in Midwest. Okay, let's see the title now is the Midwest, teachers circle, which sounds very exclusive. But they let me in so it obviously isn't.
Travis Albritton:It sounds like little Knights of the Round Table. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yep. And then what is the church that you're serving in right now with your wife,
Jason Alexander:it is the South sound Church of Christ, which is a, a church, in three regions, near and around the Puget Sound?
Travis Albritton:Well, Jason, we're glad to have you with us. So today, in this episode, we're gonna be tackling Genesis chapter one, and chapter two, specifically, with kind of the perspective the filter of what does the Bible have to say about men and women in the church and their interactions with each other. And it is important to start in the book of Genesis, because it's the beginning of the story that God has given us. And it is very often referenced throughout the rest of the Bible, when it comes to this question.
Corina Espejo:So what is the backdrop for the creation story in the book of Genesis?
Jason Alexander:Oh, yeah. Well, this is a. And my guess is that all of these questions will be fairly involved with this. This is certainly one of them. One of the more complicated, maybe even controversial questions, I think, it's helpful to recognize that Israel has a, what you'd call a shared cognitive setting with her neighbors, it's Ancient Near East, other side of the world, they write from the other side of the page. So it seems through reading creation, myth creation accounts, from Israel's neighbors, that they thought about things in very similar way. Now, that's not to say that Genesis chapter one or two was written to necessarily argue with or, or even is in dialogue with those stories. But But you do detect a similar cosmology or way of understanding the created world. So at the very least, Genesis is meant to guide well now the people of faith, but certainly Israel into a deeper understanding of their own identity and the God with whom they have to do but I think first and foremost, that's an important question that the backdrop is important because it comes out of lace far away and long ago. So that that's that's big. When you set out to read something like Genesis. glossing over that reality will land you in all kinds of misunderstandings, I think, sometimes, oftentimes, especially with Genesis, the creation, parts of Genesis. There's abuse, I think, because that that fact isn't acknowledged
Corina Espejo:and so If what you're saying why Genesis was written it was for Israel, so that they can understand and be guided by their identity and origins and God the Creator. Is there something to maybe why Genesis was Witten written in the literary style that it was? Do you think?
Jason Alexander:Oh, yeah, you're just going deeper into the complexity? Yeah. It's interesting. Um, you almost we, you know, he's saying things like, how was Genesis written, you almost want to put quotes around written because you imagine who's a popular author, Jane Austen, or something like that sitting down at her typewriter or her Mac Book, opening it up in and hammering out a book. Genesis certainly does not sit before us by way of that kind of process, Genesis, even within the text itself. And you can notice this, and certainly notice in Hebrew, but you notice in English as well, that there are editors at work, bringing together key ideas that will inform people of Israel's God and their origins. So why it's a specific way. I think it's part and parcel with the agenda. So for example, why does Genesis chapter one sit in a seven day scheme of creation, right. And this is a hot Hot Topic among those who care about these things. But doing more intertextual study of the Hebrew Bible, looking at other creation stories around Israel, again, we get an insight that seven has much to do with the idea of the temple, or the place where a deity resides. And so, it seems clear to me though, this this is argued against by by some, that Genesis one is is written to talk to us about God creating and then coming to the, in the language of Genesis two, one through three to rest in, in creation to take up to inhabit to take up a residence in creation. That would be a a way of explaining the literary structure of say Genesis chapter one, it's it's meant to talk to us about the world as a place where God takes up residence. And there's all kinds of really interesting ways that that bears itself out in both Genesis One and two, three.
Corina Espejo:I love your humility, by the way, and your honesty and even just transparency to say like that some of these things are even debated amidst you know, and so I love that because it's good for us to hear not everybody agrees, even on some of these days, but
Jason Alexander:Genesis has a way of upsetting or our certitudes, you know, we think we've grasped everything that's going on there. And more times than not, I noticed that people have missed altogether, some of the key ideas. And again, that's not because it's impossible to read. That's I'm not trying to make Genesis seem so complicated that you know, only if you only if you spend the rest of your life studying it. It'll make sense. That's not my point. But it's, it's having a, you're right, I am very humble. That's that's a good point. It's having a hug. Just kidding. It's having a humility, to approach it as somewhat foreign. And I think when you do that, especially for new readers of Genesis, you're heading them off at the past and potentially preventing crises of faith because all of the sudden, a careful reading might not allow the reigning ideas about Genesis to fit. Yeah,
Travis Albritton:so all those things, Jason, you just talked about phenomenal. I want to draw some connections to stuff we talked in the last episode about as far as how to read the Bible. So when Jason's talking about like, the writers, or the editors having an agenda, that's what we call it, the occasional situational nature of Scripture, there was a reason it was written, that it was written from a group to a group, right? And also that there are cultural underpinnings to this conversation. That's the wording that we use in the last episode. Good. And so so when we look at the story of Genesis, just recognize, you know, it wasn't just a group of, you know, Jewish scholars saying, Let's capture the story of God creating and how that relates to us. It was also in response to other creation myths that were in civilizations around them. Yeah, not just to say, you know, point by point our God is better, but to communicate why the God that they serve is radically different the way that he relates to him, then the gods around them. Oh, that's very true.
Jason Alexander:The other thing that's been surprising to me over the years and the more I encounter this, the more it takes my breath away is like any wonderful piece of art, Genesis, Genesis is assembled, written, edited, whatever redacted by resilient folk, you know, they, they have told a story, not only with their words and their vocabulary, and, you know, sentence structure or something like that, but but also the very the form of the text, right? It's so much is intentional, to the point that you almost think that can't be that can't be the case that's too detailed, but more times than not, no, they they're thinking at a register, just above where we tend to read and approach texts. So
Travis Albritton:if you're listening to this, and you're like, wow, there's a lots of Genesis I didn't know about. Douglas Jacoby co wrote a book called origins which digs into the first 11 chapters of Genesis, you can pick it up on Amazon or at his website, and we'll leave a link to that in the show notes and also on our resource list. So if you want to get into more like the scholarly backdrop of Genesis and the cultural context and things like that, that book goes really super in depth of a Corina? Yeah. Why don't you hop us right into our first scripture reading for the day?
Corina Espejo:Yeah, yeah. So let's do Genesis 126, to 31. Then God said, Let us make human beings in our image to be like us, they will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground. So God created human beings in His own image in the image of God, He created them, male and female, he created them, then God bless them and said, Be fruitful, and multiply fill the earth and governent rain over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground. Then God said, Look, I have given you every seed bearing plant throughout the earth, and all the fruit trees for your food. And I have given every green plant as food for all the wild animals, the birds in the sky, and the small animals that scurry along the ground, everything that has life, and that is what happened first 31 then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good. And evening passed and morning came marking the sixth day. That was Genesis 126 31 nlt. Version.
Travis Albritton:Perfect. So first opportunity for a misreading here. So right off the bat, verse 26. God said, Let us write Of course, make mankind that our image, who is us? Yeah, let's just clear that really quick. Yeah, this point, it's just been God. Right. And now all of a sudden, someone else is there. So walk us through that. Jason.
Jason Alexander:It is jarring. Genesis is almost scientific, in the way that it approaches creation. Everything has its place an order. And each is you know, quote, according to its kind, and it has a fairly repetitive are a pattern of divine speech in creating the world. And then all of a sudden, there's a there's a break with that. And this plural cohort ative would be the form let us has just been a Yeah, a source of theological reflection, since Genesis, it seems, has been read and written about so there are more options for who us is, then. Then it's probably helpful. The two prominent ones that I'm familiar with our reading it backwards, you see the Trinity. Yeah,
Travis Albritton:right. Right. Right. Or it could be similar to the beginning of job addressing the heavily assembly. Right, exactly. Right. Right. Those those are the two that I'm familiar with. Are there other? Oh,
Jason Alexander:yeah. My goodness, people get really creative with this. Yeah. And and, you know, they're all in for good reason. I mean, it is not, it's not obvious. And there's no decoder ring. You know, it comes with with Genesis.
Travis Albritton:So what are we to make of that? And is it? Is it relevant? Yeah, to have the precise answer to understand the story in our place in it,
Jason Alexander:um, it could be relevant depending on how you understand us, it could have quite an impact on the the interpretation of what you imagine a human is, because that's what this is about, you know, the thing being made in our, quote, image is a human being some of the other options and these are these people go back and forth about this one. Some rabbis have suggested that it's the earth itself, and that sounds insane. But there are moments in the creation server God is speaking to the earth. He's talking to the earth as if it's a living breathing life giving entity and so some some of suggests that it's the Earth Angels or some kind of like angelic Cordier he could be speaking to and there's there's evidence of that elsewhere in the Bible. The Heavenly court is the one I think I would. I'm most attracted to. I'll say more about that in just a second. But yeah, the Trinity is another one. And I don't, I'm quite sure those who are reading genesis for the first time, those to whom Genesis was written or for whom Genesis was written, they wouldn't have grasped the idea of the Trinity. So I don't know that I'd want to say, Well, that was the author, that that was what they were thinking was the Trinity. You're right, you have to do some beginning with Jesus and working through these texts after an encounter with Jesus. But substantively, I think that's fine to talk about the Trinity being present here, because certainly, the New Testament will say something very similar to that, that Jesus is intimately involved with creation. Okay, but here are some other options real quick, I'll run through, there could be some kind of vestige of polytheism You know, there are Israel's neighbors believed in and served more than one God. And so some have suggested, well, this is just cultural baggage. You know, Israel is ancient, like, Mesopotamia. And so, you know, this just might be the idea that there are several gods. Some say it could be the Royal we have you heard that one that we're the plural of majesty, have you ever used that? Like, we will be having a coke for dinner, but you're just referring to yourself?
Travis Albritton:Not since I became a disciple.
Jason Alexander:That's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty arrogant way to speak. Yeah. So but that's many See, see that as a possibility that it's God speaking in a pluralistic kind of elevated magisterial kind of speech, the plural of self deliberation, which is like thinking to yourself and some great commentaries on Genesis, go for this route, that God is thinking to himself, let's, let's make let's make man you know, let's let's make woman so it's it's more of a internal dialogue or internal What do you say internal monologue, I guess, with God, the plural of exhortation, which is just like, let's, let's see, just using using the plural, the plurality within the Godhead that you notice the spirit, you're right in verse, what does that verse two. Or it could just be an IT. Here's a really unexciting one, but just agreement with the plural word. ello heme, that's a, we translate ello heme God, but it's a plural, it's a plural word. So those are all the major options, I think, on the table if you read, but john Walton in his commentary on Genesis, which is a fairly easy read, he does something helpful. He groups them into three buckets, like, let's see, he calls them the you have theological options. That would be like the Trinity, Trinity would be the major one that stands out in my mind, you have grammatical options, which is like the Royal plural or the plural of self deliberation. I think that one's the hardest. At least he thinks that's the hardest to argue for. And then you have the cultural bucket, like explaining the plural by using cultural backdrop. And that would be things like you said it like using the ancient Near Eastern idea of a heavenly court a lots of elohiym meeting together with the great Hi, Chief eloheem the Lord, right, Israel's God is presiding over this court. And so the cultural way of getting at this, this us I think, is the most helpful because like you said, you can look at other places, Isaiah chapter six of First Kings chapter 22, there are other places where you see God speaking like this in an assembly. So I like the idea, some kind of angelic or heavenly divine being surrounding God in his creative work. And they too, are like God in that they are highly spiritual, powerful beings. And so, if that's true, then what a human is, is pretty unique. Because we're talking about then the humans not you know, God isn't conversing with the ground, but God is conversing with divine beings. And humans are like them. It's pretty amazing. Well,
Travis Albritton:and regardless of where you land on what us represents, you can certainly pull that out. Just reading Genesis one, you notice once you get to day six, this is different. Yeah, right? This is different than the birds of the year, the fish of the sea, the beasts of the earth, and the plants and the, the greater light and lesser light, like humans are special. Yeah, and so. So let's, let's move to that little poem within the poem that we get in Genesis one, then God said, Let us make mankind in our image in our likeness, so that they rule over the fish in the sea, and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals and over all the creatures that move along the ground. So God created mankind in His own image, in the image of God, He created them, male and female, he created them. So walk us through, what does it mean to be an image bearer of the Divine? And specifically in the backdrop in the context of what that would mean, to someone in ancient Mesopotamia hearing that language? Yeah.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, this is where reading like Babylonian creation myth, for example, would, would really show how Israel is unique in the way they think about humanity. There's that there's that Psalm, Psalm eight says, What is a human being, and he answers you, God have made them slightly lower than ello him, and he uses language like you've crowned them, you've made them, you've found them with glory. So humans are esteemed. They're not the product of a cosmic battle, which you have in other creation accounts in the ancient Near East where Gods go to war. And when the god bleeds, its blood mixed with the dirt. And so you have humanity and humans are made not in the image of the Divine, but because the gods themselves have needs and needs servants and slaves. And so there's a much lower vision of humanity. And certainly, the most generous would would be something like a human, the human King is made in the image of God, but certainly not everybody. And what Genesis does is, I think, somewhat revolutionary, it's still is a revolutionary text, because it's setting forth humanity as a, you know, a no caste, no hierarchy kind of system is a democratization of divine rule. And so it's not that one or a few kings or kingdoms rule creation, but the whole of humanity. And I think that's important here. You know, God says, Let us make a dumb, it's not let us make a male in our image, but let's make the whole of the human population in our image, and they will be rulers. David Klein's, in his article says in this is food for thought. He says, you know, it's not so much that we are made in God's image. Because and that's a good point, God doesn't have an image, what in the world does God look like? And so I guess you could look at a human being and say, well, that's how God looks. And there are some fairly sophisticated arguments to that, to that end, that we actually the material of our body and our appearance, this is what God looks like. But I don't think that's the idea. Here. You have instead we're not made in God's image. This is this is the big one, you are God's image. And it's funny that you know, the Greek word here when this gets translated into Greek is i icon where we get the word the idea of an icon that we are, we are as a huge humanity as a whole individuals within humanity are God's image. There's no idolatry allowed in Israel, because what could you make that's like God, idols are dead? Would that represent a god far off? But humanity, the living, breathing, creative, relational creature, known as a human being, is an image of God, it's alive, it's animated, it's so what could you create out of something dead, that would do any justice to the to the Creator God, so that the image, it is really important, and even though you know, you can open the curtains and look out your window, and see that whatever humanity is today, it surely doesn't seem divine. My attention isn't called heavenward when I look at the human population. But despite that reality we learned in Genesis nine well after humans have involved themselves in a rebellion that humans continue to carry the divine divine image. So what it means to be an image bearer I think in an ancient, ancient cultural reading of this text, there are all kinds of theological explanations. We can reason we can worship, we can feel, and those are all perfectly true. But I think the text tells us exactly what it means to be an image bear insofar as it goes on to say immediately after, and they shall rule. So this is big Genesis, chapter one isn't setting forth, a scientific description of our material nature, right? It's instead setting forth what a person a human is for. Right? It's a functional understanding, it's the role just like the sun, you know, the sun is created after light. And its emphasis is not that the sun is a big ball of burning gas, however, many millions of miles away, but that it's a ruler, it rules over the day and night, it's a functional understanding of the sun. And I think the same as for human beings. Genesis wants to tell you that humans are, what they're for what they do, who they are not so much about their biology. So we're created in that sense to rule creation. Now, what that means is another layer down into the caverns, but that that's the, that's where I think you got to begin from.
Corina Espejo:So Jason, if you're saying, when we look at this to be an image bear, it's about looking at God and His divine and really what he does, right as a ruler and giving us a part of who he is to rule and subdue, to be fruitful and multiply, walk us through how we can maybe start to pick apart what that means and look like. Is it just about having babies? Or is it something more?
Jason Alexander:Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, if this is a description of humanity as a whole, not just looking at individuals, but a larger point about the human population, then I don't I don't think you need to say that this is some kind of command that every single individual has offspring, that that wouldn't make sense that the idea is that humanity as a whole would, would fill in subdue the earth. And in fact, you're going to find as a major theme in Genesis, Baroness, infertility and complicated stories, complicated pregnancies, stories about complicated pregnancies. So it would be a stretch to say that this is a command that everyone has as children. Certainly the blessing of verse 28, does have to do I think with a fertility and you see something similar with God blesses the the animals to be fertile into populate, but what it means to be fruitful and to multiply, it does go beyond just having children. And in fact, and we could look this up if you want, so I don't know exactly which verses But Joe, Jacob, near the end of his life is told to be fruitful and multiply. And he's well beyond the years of having any more kids. So but he's told, Jacob is told, Be fruitful and multiply, and he goes on to have no more children. So either the blessing didn't work in the case of Jacob or what it means to be fruitful and multiply is something deeper and larger than just individuals getting pregnant. But it does have to do with that. I mean, it'd be short sighted to overlook that dimension here because I think Genesis wants us to see the heavily populated cities and worlds which is all God's plan and design, to be connected to a blessing that flows from from him. Our ability, our generative power comes from him
Travis Albritton:that scripture reference Genesis 35, verse 11, that sounds right. Yeah. Good deal. Thank you.
Corina Espejo:I love this. So and if I'm hearing this correctly, if I'm really taking what you're saying, Look at Genesis as Okay, big picture so that I how's it gonna apply to me? There's something here I feel inspired when I hear this to not just say, Okay, what do I need to do in that productivity mindset, but who do I need to be? It'll take me back. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. Who is this God, whether we're looking at it from that theological, the Trinity, or even that grammatical self deliberation, even that cultural heavenly assemblies? I think what I'm thinking is, Who is God? This is going to kind of propel me to wonder when I look at from Old Testament and New Testament, I'm going to wonder, how do I be like God and how I rule? How do I be like God and fruitful and multiply and we are going to see sometimes that does mean making beautiful little babies or adopting beautiful little babies or anything of the like, and sometimes it's going to mean so much more than that. And bringing in the foreigner and letting them be a part of God's multiplication of being a ruler and an image bearer does that Is that am I on track here?
Jason Alexander:Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I think that's the, that's the idea here is that this is, you know, you can get lost in all of the, you know the controversy and arguments about this text and miss the theological import, you miss what you're describing that taking up that call that, that summons to go wrestle and grapple with the beauty of humanity. And ultimately, humans are created for noble purposes, God's God's purposes, we are his, his image, and nothing can rob humanity of that vocation, that calling that that essence is really, really amazing. The idea that we rule, some imagine that, well, the Earth is ours, and God gave it to us to rule and to do with what we want. And that can result in treating God's good world and the people that inhabit it like garbage or the wildlife that inhabits it. And so whatever ruling in subduing means, insofar as we're God's image, it's connected to what kind of ruler, Governor God Himself is, which so far in Genesis chapter one, we have no reason to believe he's not a thoroughly gentle, loving, concerned with others kind of God. And so to not wrestle with the picture of God would be to maybe get your application, I hate to reduce it to just application that's not big enough, but what you do with it, if you could get it wrong.
Travis Albritton:So there's a couple more things I want to walk through in this particular passage. The first one is the word translated as mankind. Yeah. Yes. Actually. A DOM, right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Late, who later shows up as a in the story, an individual character, right. So what are the different ways that that word a DOM is translated? And how do we know? As we're reading the story that like, Okay, this is mankind, like all of humankind, this is now men specifically like male gender. And then this is now individual person, help us parse through that and how you would know what, like how to read yourself into the story. Yeah.
Jason Alexander:Okay. Well, and let me just start off by saying, The, there's more discussion here by people much smarter than me. So, you know, this is this is another thing that would be involved. But yeah, the question is, at what point in Genesis does a dumb move from like a noun to a proper noun, right to a name, when is the first time and in context is going to play a role in that, but the word of dumb means humanity, and it's, it's fairly sophisticated, its connection to aldemar, that, you know, the, the ground. So there's all kinds of discussions there. But you want to see a dumb in these verses as humanity because it's then later parsed out and described as something that's male and female. So it wouldn't make much sense to say that the man is male and female, it's fitting if at the end of Genesis chapter three, when the woman is given her name by the man, and her name is cover. And that means probably life is the idea she her name means life. And the man's name is a DOM, which is connected to ground. So you have I mean, if we were to translate a DOM and Cava, we'd get ground and life, which is exactly what they're the stories describe that a DOM is made from the ground, and then a woman comes from a dumb, so it's not yet, man, because it's described here as male and female.
Corina Espejo:So just to clarify that we're really just talking about the verses that we just read Genesis 126 31, it does flip later, but we're not there yet. So when I read this, as a woman, I can still feel confident, I want to look towards God as my image bear.
Travis Albritton:So before we move to Genesis to one more observation, that that I want to make and I'll get your thoughts on Jason, this identity as an image bearer is given to mankind, male and female. It actually goes so far as saying, both Yeah, men and women for sure. And then both men and women are given the responsibility to rule and subdue Be fruitful and multiply and go. So it's not males rule and subdue. Then because you got to have two to tango men and women told you to be fruitful multiply. Both men and women are called to rule and subdue. What would that have meant to an ancient audience to hear that? Yeah, view of women?
Jason Alexander:Well, I don't know exactly how everyone around is real in those days would have construed women as the image of the Divine. But this certainly has a high view of humanity as a whole men and women, Genesis is not discriminating here, there isn't. There isn't hierarchy here within humanity. There isn't here any indication that one of the things that the image bear is to rule in subdue is another image bearer that would be reading into this, these verses something that's not there, that you you want to find. This is again, part of that, being humble. And as much as is possible, taking the text as it sits before us. And doing the hard work of reading and translating and reading about the ancient world. Thankfully, there are people that's done that for us, so we can just read their stuff. But the idea that a man would rule over a woman, it's not here, look elsewhere,
Corina Espejo:this is great. If your head is spinning, and you're like this goes against everything I've ever heard or learned. Listen, we're We love you. We're praying for you. We're right there with you. Let's keep going. As we're diving a little bit more into this. And again, if you're like this is blowing my mind, Hey, man, we're so excited to blow your mind. We are excited for your study and your Bible study. So let's keep tracking Genesis 218 to 24. Let's start talking a little bit about this passage. And we're going to keep coming back to what is God's intent in creating men and women to fulfill the role of image bearers. But let's keep going Genesis 218, to 24. And if you're reading in a bunch of different translations, or versions, great, I'm reading an NLT. So starting in verse 18, of chapter two, it says, Then the Lord God said, It is not good for the man to be alone, I will make a helper who is just right for him. So the Lord God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds to the sky, he brought them to the man to see what he could call them. And the man chose a name for each one. He gave names to all the livestock, all the birds of the sky, and all the wild animals, but still, there was no helper just right for him. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man's ribs and close up the opening. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man. At last hit, the man exclaimed, this one is born from my bone and flesh from my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she was taken from man. This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife and the two are united into one.
Travis Albritton:Alright, so Jason right off the bat again, we're just going to jump straight into the straight into the fire. Yeah. helper. Yeah. Walk us through this word. helper. Suitable help, mate? Yeah, yeah. Her personal assistant? Yeah, Secretary. Yeah, right. There's a little there's a little sarcasm going on. Yeah,
Jason Alexander:no, I don't mean to be sarcastic. No. So listen, that, but this is this is an important discussion. And again, it's hard for me to talk about this without panning out just a bit because the question for me has always been help with what help to do what like, what, what's the idea what what exactly does he need help with is that he needs help. Like, he's got things to do. And he's a busy, busy guy. And so he needs help. And so I think that setting of why help is required can be important to this discussion. And again, remember Genesis chapter one, I think you walk away with when you do business with ancient setting, you read not just Genesis, but more of the of the Scriptures, you notice that? Genesis one really sets us on a trajectory for understanding the whole narrative of Scripture, as controversial the narrative, you know, it's not it's not necessarily a clean, direct line all the way from beginning to end. But there is a story being told throughout Scripture and Genesis tells us that God created a very good and good is key in Genesis one not perfect world, but its perfection or its its goal. Its tell us that the thing for which God created all things humans play a role. That and human beings, that's God's plan to take creation from a the good creation from A to its next good place B and C and so on humans are involved. They're co creators. They're the image of God. They work with him and for His glory, and they themselves radiate out the glory and wisdom and kindness of the Creator. The humans play a role that where is God. And that story will he's, if I'm reading it right, and we'll definitely see this in Genesis chapter two and three, he's there. He's not off in the distant, whatever the azure blue, looking down from heaven, but God Himself intends to take up residence. And so heaven and earth are one, one reality in creation. And so humans have a role. Genesis, chapter 126, to 28 gives us the function of humanity, and they play a role in God's good world. Genesis chapter two will give more attention to the creation of humanity. But it also portrays creation in very temple like terms. Or maybe you could say, the stories about the temple later in the Hebrew Bible, or in the stories of the tabernacle, describe the tabernacle in the temple in creation terms. And so everything about Eden reminds one of the temple, the very presence of God, from the waters flowing out from the this kind of hub of creation in Eden, to the gold there in the idea is it's because God is there, and you almost want to look at this Eden, and its garden as the place from which the world jumps off. It's the the lifespring are the wellspring of all creation, that's the image of the waters flowing out, and that that is seen throughout, think of Zechariah 14, Psalm 36, john, for john seven, zekiel 4017. It's all over Hebrew Scripture, that rivers of life flowing from where the God lives. And so we're, whereas Genesis one shows humans as these Royals, sort of ruling images of God, Genesis two portrays the humans in the garden, like the garden adjacent to the temple, as these very priestly figures and their role. And again, in Genesis two, it is interested in their role humanity is created to work and keep the garden and that language is used by the for the priests in the tabernacle, and they work in keep the worship going in the tent. So humans are portrayed in Genesis chapter two, as priestly figures who have a role, they're not just created, and Okay, enjoy yourself, you know, like, do what you'd like find a career path, find a purpose, that I mean, all of that's a part of it, but they play a larger role of stewarding this garden. And I think the idea is that they would with each generation sort of push back the boundaries of Eden creation, the creation project begins here with these people. So if you've established that kind of context, now you're in a place to ask for help for what, and it's that it's, it's that the gendered pair of man and woman is is made, and she's a helper, because he needs help. He is not self sufficient. And he needs help specifically, to keep and work the garden. And he needs a kind of help that is corresponding to him not. The Hebrew here is notoriously obscure. I don't know if obscures the word but it's difficult, a helper and then there's three prepositions in a role as before him, What in the world do you do with that? But the idea, I think, is corresponding it's like everything that he isn't maybe, but he needs that other side of humanity to steward this garden. And I don't even think here, I'd want to jump immediately to what he needs her for procreation, that's certainly true. And that's going to show up in these verses. But But first and foremost, Genesis two opens with now the earth was kind of like Genesis chapter one, the earth was barren and there was no rain and there was a spring that welled up from the ground and there was no one to take care of the earth and so God made a dumb, but a DOM wasn't sufficient. More help was needed to really move creation forward. That's the setting in which a woman is is made. So just like Genesis one where the woman or where the humanity is created as a culmination of the creation project. Same thing here. The woman is the last thing in the world is built in Hebrew. The woman is built from the man, which is pretty awesome. But she's built from this animate living being. And she she's kind of the crown jewel of the Genesis chapter two. Now we're in a position to move forward. So just Thoreau dignity for both men and woman in these passages. There is no indication here that she is his personal assistant, and that he's got plans and she'll be right alongside him to quietly implement his ideas that that's not the idea. They are co keepers, tillers of the garden, there's nothing about the word help, that indicates subordination. In fact, the Help is usually a deliverer. And, to our surprise, help is used of God. Often it's, it's a, it's a common way of praying to God and the Psalms be my help. They're not saying be my subordinate. That's not the idea. So help would actually imply that you need help. You're in need, not the helper. So this is a really beautiful picture of CO creators, no indication of one ruling over the other not yet. That's going to come, but it's not here.
Corina Espejo:So I love what you said, Jason, when you're thinking, Okay, wait a minute, go back to the beginning of Genesis two. And how we can't really I know, unfortunately, in this podcast, we're isolating these passages, but we cannot, especially when you think about, you know why this book was written? Who was written to the style that it was written in that what comes before these passages actually does tell us a lot about what we're actually reading. I actually love I'm so curious to hear Travis explain this to me. And I actually really enjoyed the way he explained because, you know, he brought up this concept of what's what's the deal with the parade of animals before Adam? And I'm really I like the way Travis explains it. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. Travis, do you want to? I'd love to hear you say that again.
Travis Albritton:If you just read it, it reads as if God doesn't really know what the answer is. Right? It's like, okay, I made man. He's not up to the task. So let's just see if we can create some kind of all star team here. out into the world. Let's see if dogs are ready to be man's best friend. Has this like parade of animals? Like, yeah, so you can you can read it as like God shooting from the hip, trying to figure something out. You can also read it from the perspective of God is doing this for on Adams behalf. Yeah. So when he arrives, at the end, waking up and seeing he Shah, is there, yeah, that he recognizes what makes her different. And then it could also simply be actually setting up Genesis three, where we now have this serpent figure, who would have been a part of this parade of animals, and is like, what the heck, I'm the craftiest. Animal here. Why was I not chosen? To be fair? Right? Yeah, totally. Yeah. So So what is what is your take on? Why that aside, is there or, or how it plays into this idea of understanding the significance of that situation? Isha?
Jason Alexander:I love the way you describe it as a parade? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm more agnostic with with those verses, because I'm not exactly I'm not exactly sure. Yeah, the the the idea that humans are co creators, you see at work, then God kind of honoring that vocation of like, let's see, see, this is why I made you for so you know, let's go let's, let's see, I you do this, and the text doesn't specify is looking for a help? Well, it doesn't. It doesn't specify that this thing is the search. We're told he doesn't have a helper. And then there's then there's this, specifically naming the creatures so that that's an indication of his authority, I think at least, but I like the idea of God playfully involving the human in the next step, arriving. I think that's as long as you don't think that procreation is part of the help because of procreation ends up being part of the help you have something blasphemous in the Hebrew Bible. I mean, that no way would God offer animals as a sexual counterpart. So that would be the one challenge if you if you imply in help procreative or generative ability, but it almost feels like a sidebar, where it's like I heard one person describe it as literarily building suspense, which is kind of what you were saying. Leading us along to Oh, the woman The surprise crown jewel right of the created world? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I've went through that quite a bit. And I kind of gave up. Because it's there. I mean, it's there. It's part of the project, but I don't I don't know. Sorry.
Corina Espejo:Good. No, this gives me hope that like, I don't have to an immediate answer. I'm not a failure as a leader when this is good. Jason exact Alexander doesn't have the answer. I feel Oh, no. It's not a surprise. Good. This is exciting. So let's jump into one of my favorite words. And I think in studying this word out, I'm still learning so much about it. But let's try and cover some some groundwork. We're looking at this aser word helper, is aser. a feminine characteristic? Are we looking at this and saying this is for female?
Jason Alexander:No, it's not. I mean, in terms of Genesis, chapter two, it will turn out that the Help is a woman. But that is not to portray her as subordinate, rather, as a counterpart or almost like a delivering Adam from his helplessness or his single handedness. He'll need more than what he is. And so she is there to help him out. Again, not his personal assistant. And help is not a term used for females alone. It's not Yeah, it's it's not designated for females. I mean, it's used to describe deliver of some kind. They're helping us out. It's a it's a, it's a good idea. It's not, it's not to imply subordination. And of course, the fact that God is described as Israel's help would suggest that I mean, when, when Israel calls on the Lord to be their help, they're not saying be my assistant, that that makes zero sense. So there's nothing inherent in the word to apply that she's lessor, or an afterthought, or anything like that.
Corina Espejo:And I think the first time and again, if your mind is blown, you're in good company, because that for the longest time I know I said, Acer, Acer Connect. Oh, that means that females are a helper and even as we're talking about, okay, hierarchy and subordination. That is going to mean a lot of these words mean so many different things to so many different people. I know growing up, I'll be honest, it was like besotted bad word. You're, you're a quote unquote, subordinate. You're lower in the hierarchy you are only designed for. And people think what's wrong with that, right? And then other people hear that word, and they're going to feel so belittled, devalued, and fear. And you're going to have this wide range, even with us talking in English as Americans. Like, we're going to have such a wide response to even these words. My takeaway, though, when I realized aser, was not meant to define females, it was meant to describe how we as humanity, we weren't meant to be alone, as we accomplished, God's designed for us to rule to be good stewards to use that word steward. I love that word to take care of and manage something that God has given us that we're really ruling something that was entrusted to us. Right, right. And I love that because it was, it took some of these cultural connotations out of it and brought me again, back to God, back to Elohim. I'm not hearing aser and thinking female, that's what I am. I am aser. Right, right. But I'm thinking I am God's creation. I am meant to be like him, as he delivers us, helps us and vice versa. Is that Yeah,
Jason Alexander:yeah, there's nothing here that would imply the male is the boss and the females, the Assistant that just doesn't, it's it's not here. Now, again, that is going to come up in the biblical vision of gender is, it's pretty amazing, I think. But when we get to a point where we're talking about submission and concern and reverence and gentleness toward one another, imagining a future, that's not the current situation. We're not talking about a kind of built in hierarchy into creation. There's almost like you could think of it as an undoing of something that's went horribly wrong in creation. So, I mean, this is this again, this is the biblical vision of society as a takeaway, the biblical vision of humanity is there isn't hierarchy. And that's, that's, I think, in the ancient world, but even today, that's revolutionary. There are there is no system stratified society here, humans are image bearers of God, and they have a vocation, men and women, when we get to the Apostle Paul, which I'm grateful that you have, that I don't have to guide you through that. Leave that to someone better than me, this will come up there. But here in Genesis, also, I should mention that she that she came after the man also should not imply to a subordination, there's a discussion about priority of, of creation, or firstborn birth rights in the book of Genesis. It's there, the firstborn being the inheritance, inheriting the blessing. But what's so amazing in Genesis is that cultural assumption is always undercut by I mean, even right in the very next chapter is after the creation story with Cain and Abel, I mean, this the second born is being favored. And that just carries on where the firstborn isn't held in such high esteem as the surrounding culture might have imagined. So I think we want to be careful to jump to from Genesis, we get to Paul, there's a more complicated discussion that has to take place. But But here, nothing so far has revealed to us in Genesis one or two, that the woman is a lesser or subordinate creature, and that it's not God's designed intent that that is the case nothing here that would imply that and I my reading, and I come at that from a, let me just say the words that hopefully people are tired of hearing, but they're important that Genesis chapters one and two are deeply complementarian. Like, in the best sense of that word, man and woman complement each other in God's will. And it is deeply egalitarian or mutual. They are not over one another. The polarizing effect of this discussion is very unfortunate, where the church is shoehorned into this discussion, pick a side, it's like anything else in our society, pick a side, and you just can't. And it's a shame that that language has been hijacked, and has come to mean very technical meanings, because the text itself portrays complimentary mutual beings. And those aren't dirty words that you know, those on one side think the other side, it's a sinful use of language, but it's not it's right there. So it will do no good to say I'm a mutualist, or I'm a complementarian. Like, then you're not dealing with the whole of this portrayal of humanity.
Travis Albritton:Kareena and I are laughing because in the last episode, we were like, We will not use those terms, because they're not helpful.
Jason Alexander:They're not unfortunately, they're not. Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing, that's why I've not used them, because, you know, I I'd like to redeem them, but it's like rodini retrying to redeem liberal and conservative. I mean, they're, they're, they're already freighted. And it'll take a long time to unpack that, you know, carrier, it's so it's almost like, it's unfortunate, you have to go a different route. And then it gets more confusing, because it's like, well, what do you mean, you're introducing a crazy idea?
Corina Espejo:So technical and so inconsistent? Yeah, right. Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. I love this, I love as we're really just looking at what's in front of us doing really great exegetical reading of Scripture, not trying to pull in everything we know, experienced, but just looking at Genesis 126 31, Genesis 218, to 24. So for example, we're talking about creation order, and doesn't matter. Well, according to these two passages, we're not reading that here. And so we can't pull from what's not there. So as we're looking at all these things, we really want to encourage you read from what's in front of you pull from what is there, read in context, all of Genesis one to two, on to three. And let's just talk about our takeaways for today, if we're just trying to stay, you know, sit within the pocket here, okay? We're reading our identity is first and foremost as image bearers of God, both men and women as a DOM as humanity. All of us get to continue to look to God to figure out how to rule, how to subdue, how to be fruitful, and how to multiply, right. And then looking at it, again, just Genesis one and two, those of you who are already looking ahead, stick with us here, stick within the pocket. There's no hierarchy suggested here. And depending on what you think that means, again, look back to Scripture and see, there's no one above the other in terms of we're all equal before God, and we all complement each other. And that's a part of our commission, if you will, to rule and subdue, to be fruitful, multiply together as co workers and then We're all called to be Acer's to one another to, again, and the scripture that I thought about was second Corinthians three, I love this. But whenever it's an inverse 16 but whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away, for the Lord is the spirit and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. So all of us who have had that veil removed, can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord Who is the spirit makes us more and more like Him, as we are changed, and to his glorious image. And so we all get to move from glory to glory to be like that God, who is that aser who is that helper and and humility help each other. Right? That's a part of the beauty of being a human being.
Travis Albritton:If you want to get the study guide for this episode, you can go to women church, podcast comm, you can sign up for that newsletter, and you'll get that study guide and in addition to all the other study guides who put out to help you with this podcast, and also get to get notified about new episodes, but we look forward to having you back next week, when Jason's gonna come back and help us work through Genesis three and make sense of what is going on in that story and why it's relevant to the question we have about what does the Bible say about women in the church?