In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to discuss the prominent role women played in Israelite society and what leaders like Deborah and Esther can tell us about God's plan to use women for his earthly rescue mission.
Questions we'll answer in this episode:
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In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to discuss the prominent role women played in Israelite society and what leaders like Deborah and Esther can tell us about God's plan to use women for his earthly rescue mission.
Questions we'll answer in this episode:
Sign up to receive Bible study guides, handouts, and resources that complement what you learn in this podcast by going to WomenChurchPodcast.com
Welcome back to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look at what the Bible says about women in church for the IC o see if you've been following along, you know, the usual suspects myself, Travis Albritton, the lovely Corina essayhow as well,
Corina Espejo:yes. Hello.
Travis Albritton:And then Jason Alexander back for a punishment
Jason Alexander:once again. That's right.
Travis Albritton:So Corina, you had a wonderful thought for how to lead off today's episode, why don't you go ahead and just jump right into that?
Corina Espejo:Yeah, I think for me, I know, all three of us, I'm sure in setting out this topic as well as many difficult topics, there can be this panic or confusion. That leaves us feeling and I believe the term you use, Jason was skeptical despair. So we are not ignorant that some of you may be feeling a bit of despair, you might be feeling a lot of things. But we would like to offer you just a different perspective. And Jason, you quoted you had a quote that I loved. Can you read that for us again?
Jason Alexander:Yeah, sure. That was Christian Smith's book, the Bible made impossible by that sounds like a great, great devotional reading. So okay, the quote I had read you was sort of his defense of the deconstruction, that that happens in his book, but he says my point here is not to drive readers into skeptical despair, about learning anything from the Bible about how to live faithfully today. My point rather, is to undermine simplistic and divisive interpretive habits of some bibble assists who easily point to this or that practice of God's people recorded in the Bible and pronounce that the same practices binding on Christians today, because it is clearly quote, biblical. If we are to more intelligently and consistently sort through scriptural practices in order to learn how to live today, we need a stronger, more coherent hermeneutical Guide to foster discernment. So that's more more technical than I thought it would be. You know, I'm not sure I want to agree with everything he said there. But the spirit of that I think, is really important that the goal of examining biblical texts and thinking through what we thought we had understood so perfectly, is not to make the Bible less understandable or to take it out of our hands and say, Oh, you can't you can't do that. Because it's, it's ancient. And you need to understand all of the ancient world, if you're going to do anything with the Bible. That's not the goal. As someone who teaches the Bible, I want to place scripture in our hands in a way that empowers us to see the love and goodness of God that's revealed there in and so I like that he says, simplistic and divisive interpretive habits, and that would be approaching the Bible, you know, with like an overly legal mind, I think we have to learn to come to Scripture, understand that it is somewhat foreign, but then moving on to encounter God. That is that's revealed there in Scripture. So for me, the goal is faithful living before God, we read Scripture, not to assemble some kind of puzzle, or even to just think, theologically, but so that we might know and honor God. And so the worst readings of all are those which do not culminate in faithfulness. If we're reading scripture, just to sort of sort out some ancient text, then we're really missing the point here. The goal of Scripture is faithfulness before God. So any any approach that doesn't land there, shame on us.
Corina Espejo:Yeah, and quick confession. I know I've been there looking at the Scripture and maybe treating it with you know, that legal mind like you talked about, but I think the moment that it that changed for me to approach the Bible, and again, it's it's something about it, it honors my humanity to not have all the answers right. And it allowed me to enjoy right, enjoy learning and enjoy. Just pursuing God's heart and his will on things. Yeah, it's exciting.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, the growing comfortable with mystery. You know, it's not something we love. But it is something we have to do nothing about the God we serve should lead us to assume that we're just going to put them in our pocket and move on. Like, we're just going to get a hold of them and, and then we figured it out. Now let's move on and help other people figure it out like that. It's, it's bigger than that the sort of participation that is involved in reading the Bible with Divine Will requires creativity. It requires discussion, and more than anything and then this can get left in the dust sometime but it requires Prayer to be prayerful to take these texts into, to seek the God who is alive at every time and in every place with every people. He's not just a figure from history, we read about scriptures trying to, in my mind, point beyond itself to the living God's scriptures not saying come and read us and figure it all out. It's saying, Come and look at God. And that's going to involve some non answers at points. Sorry, I cannot live forever about that. I'm passionate about this discussion. Because it's the difference between faithful inspired readings and applications and a kind of dead legalism that that inevitably comes when you're not seeing God in the text
Travis Albritton:well, and leaves you wanting more and on a really dangerous precipice, where the certainty that we can build around our understanding of Scripture, right can leave us a false sense of security. Totally.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, dude. And again, I have speculated that the reason we read about legalism in the lives of religious people in the Gospel, the reason that comes up so much, is because that's what we all can potentially, you know, we can become that. And it's interesting, Jesus never really challenged like, it seems core doctrine of Pharisees. He wasn't like, Hey, you believe the wrong things. It was more like your reading is too small, like I'm thinking of the famous one is john seven. He says, you know, you search the Scriptures all day. But you refuse to come to me. And of course, I'm paraphrasing, but I'm the referent of those various scriptures that you devour on a daily basis, and yet you do not see me. So for all of your careful study, you've totally missed the point. And I think those are there as explanations offered for why Jesus ultimately was, was not loved by the religious elite. But they're also there, I think, as warnings that that's what you can become, if you don't keep an openness to the God who will surprise you. And by surprise, I don't mean, contradict himself. But the danger of that sort of legalism is it shrinks your God into it? What do they call it? When you stage butterflies, like you pin them, you know, like you, and you just put God under a microscope, and you got him, you got a handle on him. And that's, I think Jesus is trying to confront that kind of thinking, but that all of that could be very relevant to a discussion about gender. Because we can tend to treat just a few like, I mean, at the end of the day, we're all only interested in what five passages and they're all coming from the Apostle Paul. And that's what we really want to know about. And that's my point. Like, you can't do that, you're gonna have to take more on board than just a few things that Paul has said. Anyways, alright, and the sermon.
Travis Albritton:And I think that's a perfect transition to what we're going to discuss today, we've spent the last couple of episodes going like verse by verse through the first three chapters of Genesis. Now we want to pull back our scope to the first two thirds of the Bible and look at how did gender play a role in the the nation, the people of Israel, the goal being that we just want to really see like, what is God's heart towards men and women, that as he is shaping this people, as he's shaping the Israelites into a society of priests that are then going to be a light to the world, that is going to teach us a lot about how God thinks about the way that men and women interact, how they work together, to achieve his purposes, and point us in the direction of us today as Christians living in the New Covenant, bringing us closer and closer to Genesis two, right, closer and closer into the fulfillment of the kingdom breaking in to creation, and that we get to partner in that takeover mission by living out those Genesis two principles. as disciples today, I might have just given away like a bunch of stuff at the end, but you'll just have to stick around for all the details. So Jason, why don't you just kind of kick us off by in this might be this might feel a little ticky tack, but the difference between patrilineal and patriarchal. So I think the patriarchy that's a buzzword nowadays. And so it's easy to look back at ancient civilizations, ancient societies, even in the Bible, and say, Oh, that was a male dominated society, where women were essentially just baby making machines. We don't see that in the Bible. So So walk us between the difference between patrilineal patriarchal, and how that played out in the way that God set up the nation of Israel,
Jason Alexander:I think, yeah, you're right, the word patriarchy, it communicates, you know, a very heavy handedness. And the world in which Israel lived and breathed, it was ruled by the Father. And that's what the word means that Father ruled, or, you know, dad is the head of the household men are running the show. And so it's not as if Israel's introducing that, like, here's a great, you know, a way to structure society. It's just a given fact, it's the way that the ancient world operated. And without putting everyone to sleep, I'll mention something like the code of Hammurabi, and you look at patriarchy in a setting like that, and the Bible is in stark relief, in many instances to that patriarchal culture. The way that patriarchy can be connected to women being oppressed is something I think, is on the radar for Biblical authors. Even just the way within biblical what we'd call biblical law that bears itself out. So it's patriarchy, a bad word. I guess that's an open to interpretation. There is a way of understanding fathers taking care of a family that's not oppressive and bad. And I think, given that Israel is moving around and living in a culture where patriarchy is the norm, I think their vision of the way of fatherhood, and being a husband or being a son, just being a male is more God like so it gets redemptive in that sense, without trying to make a point that men are better than women, which is the point patriarchy seems to make over and over the Bible, I don't see. It's not an endorsement of patriarchy. That's it's not saying this is what God is looking for it rather, it's real people in real places, and God is doing something big through them. And there are ways in which Israel's life and faith subverts those cultural norms.
Travis Albritton:That make sense. I don't know if that does, it does well. And to my understanding, patriarchal simply means in the context of a family unit, husband is the head of the household. Yeah. patrilineal is in reference to how families are traced over time, right, specifically for the allotment of land, which was a big piece of entering the promised land for the Israelites, right that if you are giving sons and daughters and marriage to other people in different tribes and clans, right, and God has also instituted that every seven years you need to return family lands, then how are you going to keep track of all of that, if it's just all over the place, it's much cleaner to say, we got to choose one or the other, we're going to trace it through the males line. And that's how we're going to keep track of everything.
Jason Alexander:And that also wouldn't be odd. In the ancient world. Yeah. But it meant that if you were a young woman, you growing up in the household, and father as the head of the household is another discussion worth having, because the Bible sets forth an image of the mother in the household that she carries quite a bit of weight and teaching both boys and girls. And so as partners in the household, mom and dad did carry authority. But if you're a young woman in the home, if you are married, you would leave your home and go live with your husband's family. And he would stay home with his dad and mom and their daughter, his sisters would move to there. So that's the idea that the household Yeah, you're right. It's organized by the men. I'd want to be careful about reading into that the assumption that the Bible thinks men are better, or call all the shots because there's enough in the old testament to prove that that's not the case. But it is the way society was organized.
Travis Albritton:Well, even just looking at the contrast between that and Genesis to where it says For this reason, the man will leave his Oh, right. A joint to his wife, right?
Jason Alexander:That's right. Yeah. And we want to say, Well, he didn't go very far. Like he went next store. But yeah, so marriage does bring about new families that are continuous with the old and there is an honoring of the family unit. And that's important for Israel, right, the tribes and the land and the you know, the economy, all of this political life. It's it gets bound up in what is called bait of the household of the Father, which seems to be The family unit in Israel, but it's a it's a political, economic entity that helps structure society and so to wield any authority in the home, is to have authority in society, which I don't think we think of things. In those terms today. You know, if a woman has authority in the home, we don't say there's a powerful woman. So that is a bit of a cultural, we have to do some, some traveling, I guess to, to understand that.
Corina Espejo:So summarize because again, I don't want anybody to get lost in the sauce here. Wonderful notes that I'm taking, just to summarize, so the surrounding norm that the Bible was set in for the most part Old Testament that it was patriarchy, and there were always there's always going to be an exception, right? You're always gonna have somebody somewhere, say, but what about that one society, right? But widely, right, and there are different levels and flavors. And the thing I like here is that word patriarchy has different perspectives, connotations that especially for us today. So I need to be humble and careful that my concept and my perspective of patriarchy that I'm not imposing that, particularly on the sentiments, right sentiments of those old testament characters, but just to be careful, but by and large, right, the typical cultural norm that the Bible was set in that it was patriarchy. But be careful. It might not mean or look like what you think it looks like, for example, you mentioned that the Bible doesn't endorse that model, but it probably also doesn't overtly condemn it, right. So be careful. We're not imposing that sentiment on to the Bible.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, that's great. fathers are not
Corina Espejo:bad. Right. Right.
Jason Alexander:I am a father. So I hope that's not not the case. But there is again, a vision of the home and the family in Scripture that is sometimes overtly but oftentimes, it's more subtle, but it's kind of knocking the legs out from underneath oppressive cultures. Yeah, same is true in the New Testament with with slavery, right? Some of the moves that Paul makes, has a bigger impact on slavery than to just say, I don't like slavery, or slavery is bad, right? And so that's, that's the brilliance of what God is doing through a people in a lost world. It's really awesome.
Corina Espejo:Love that. And it's consistent with what we talked about in previous episodes, right? That right? God is calling us to rule and subdue, but but in his right, same holiness, righteousness nature, right. And I love what you mentioned to both mom and dad carried authority and responsibility, and they may be different. But there is a sense of what you're mentioning, and I guess we're going to get into this next. But what you're mentioning is that family unit has influenced not just within the home, and I think this is so different, obviously, from our American culture. But then, the leaders within a home, both mom and dad, it seems like, in their own ways, had an influence on society. And you're talking about politically, economically. And that's so hard on me, Hey, listen, if y'all at home are like, what does that even mean? Because we don't live in that culture. So right. I'm taking a student, I'm going to take a learner's heart today and hear what that means. So I'm excited.
Jason Alexander:I try to explain these things with a great deal of trepidation. One because I recognize how it sounds, you know, a big pale, redheaded male. telling you what it was like for a woman in the ancient world. Like, I recognize that that's suspicious, you know, that I am definitely not an expert in this, this discussion. But you know, I think from what I've learned, things are not always what you seem, what we might call, relegating either a man or a woman into a specific, overly specified role. It might not be as disgraceful as it is because we're, I think, because we approach the Bible from our own setting. And there'll be another comment back on what we said, you know, you, you have to do some self examination. You know, I live in the United States of America, and in the here and now. And so, there are cultural things that have happened, especially within the last 500 years that have shaped exactly the kinds of questions and the kinds of takeaways I'll have from reading the Bible. You got to acknowledge those, and be prepared to jettison some of that. And once you do you find something beyond redemptive. It's beautiful. What you see in Scripture, the dignity offered humanity is I mean, it's it's unmatched in my opinion in the ancient world, and today.
Corina Espejo:So now that we're all good and humble, and getting ready to learn and Both from Jason a tall redheaded man and or myself as you peel your skin color. It's pretty good.
Jason Alexander:Well, we got some good lighting good lighting done under watching me he's not gonna do you any favors. Okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Corina Espejo:No, no, you're good. Alright, so and me as a short, brown, tiny petite woman. Yeah, so fun. So fun. So let's walk through Israel's history if we're just sticking on the Old Testament, okay. And I know so many people are eager to move on to New Testament, but hang with us here. Hmm. Let's talk a little bit about Israel's history, you know, again, as a narrative as a story of patriarchs and matriarchs.
Jason Alexander:Yes, we had talked about Genesis chapter three. And I don't remember exactly what we had said there. But that ends with the man and the woman now Adam and Eve being exile. And from that moment on, scripture is telling a story of life outside the garden, and the way that the garden will influence life outside the garden going forward. I think Travis, you mentioned lemak, the first encounter with a polygamist mm hmm, he's abusive, there's nothing great about his character. And you know, so you're starting to this, to see a deterioration of the family dynamic and marriage and men and women and the way women are treated, and death, there's all these geniale illogical lists of, you know, showing so and so gave birth to so and so and so and so had so and so at, you know, 1000 years old, and it's the part at which in the book of Genesis 99% of us close the book and walk away, frustrated, because I didn't come to church to read a bunch of lists of names. But those lists show that the blessing God gave human beings is working, but it's stopped short by death. You know, at each turn. In Genesis six, we learn more women are involved in a serious infraction women and some sort of divine entity, having children together. And that's a big No, no, in Genesis, because again, everything has its order and its place, and its kind in the world is highly organized. And so to be transgressing those boundaries and having those illicit relationships. And it's really hard, I think, for us to get our head around what what's what's happening there. But, but yeah, women, again, they're not portrayed as great either, right. So like, men don't come off great. Women don't come off great. And so the point, I think, in the first 11 chapters of Genesis is to see humanity gone awry, and the unfortunate impact that has on everything else that God has made. And sadly, there's a moment where God actually says I regret the whole thing. And that should just break our hearts as readers, because it's set off to achieve such a beautiful end. But in chapter 11, this is the story of the Tower of Babel. And we see the human beings coming together congregating in one language and in deep unity, and they say in their anxiety, let's make a name for ourselves, let's make a city and set the tallest buildings and temples and you know, let's scrape heaven with our skyscrapers and, and then everyone will no one will be safe, and God has none of it. He confuses their language. And so the attempt by human beings to make a name for themselves, is thwarted by God. And it gives an explanation for the diversity of languages and people. It's, there's a lot going on there. But I bring all that up. Because if we try to make sense of the rhetorical structure of Genesis, when we get to Genesis, well, 11, verse 30, towards the end of the same chapter of the Tower of Babel, we are transported to somewhere near Iraq, and we meet this one family, and it's that family that we will journey with for the rest of the Bible. I mean, the rest of the Bible is all about this Mesopotamian family, and you're not exactly told why they're so special. But I think again, looking at the rhetorical understair strategy, I guess, of the book, this family is God's answer his response to creation gone awry. Right. So the cosmic effect of human sin and how it's decimated and there's been judgment and floods and arrogance beyond calculation. God's way of responding is to call this family And that, of course, is of Rama and Sarah, and they're elderly. And they're not Jewish, there is no Jewish, right that Israel isn't a thing yet in the story. But we're told that Abrams wife is barren. And immediately, we've already seen lists that end in death. But now we come to a place where it's like, well, she's barren. There's not even going to be a list, right? Like this is this show stops here. And so barren, pneus, or infertility in the book of Genesis is a major hurdle. But it's also one of the ways God sets up what it means to hope.
Travis Albritton:How're you guys doing? Doing great, keep going, Jason.
Jason Alexander:So the fact that she's barren wood, especially as an ancient reader, like man, to be barren, is to really live without hope. And so women didn't get a fair shake in the ancient world, much less barren women, because you really had no recourse, you had no option for vocation, right? If, if having a family was the goal in the family was such an influential entity in the neighborhood or in society, but you can have a family, while the you're going to suffer greatly. Also, keep in mind, for these ancient readers, the unveiling of God's will, through Jesus Christ hasn't taken place. So even the idea of an afterlife is been taken away from you, because the best you can do for an afterlife is have children, and they'll carry on your legacy. But if you don't have that, then the show stops with you. You literally have no future, to be barren is to be put in a place of despair be beyond even death, at least with death. There was a life with Baroness there's no future. And so we should we should immediately I think when we see this barren woman say, Well, how in the world is this supposed to work? And remember, the judgments on humanity, having children would be a challenge. So here we see part of that fallen reality working itself out, here's the thing, in the solution, just pretty amazing. God's response is to operate moving forward with the broken blighted stuff of humanity, but for these, and use the word matriarchs for these pillar, women of Israel's history, they were vulnerable. And God knew that, right? God knows that, in choosing to use this situation tells you a lot about what God thinks is possible. And God tipping His compassion not just to a woman, and not just to a barren woman, but to again, set women in a position to be honored.
Travis Albritton:So that's, I mean, just blows my mind, the things that God does, to redeem the irredeemable just gives me hope. And I think it's easy for us, reading back through the Scriptures, especially seeing these really vulnerable women to think like, Oh, well, that means that they had no influence. They were just kind of at the behest at the whim of their husband. But we actually get these little vignettes throughout the Old Testament, to help us to see the influence that women wielded in the Israelite community, and how God empowered them to partner with men. So kind of like walk us through like what some of those vignettes could look like, you know, especially the really famous one in the Proverbs in Proverbs chapter 31.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, that's great. And I'll be much more concise. I'm sorry. Like you're talking to a preacher. So like, my, my impulse is just to like, open your Bibles like McCullin, especially in old Southern
Travis Albritton:Baptist.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, I get it. Now. I know.
Travis Albritton:Like let's break out of a song. You know, guys, yeah, have another offering braids. Mango? Yeah,
Jason Alexander:pass the plate. Yep. So again, we're talking about Israel set in a patriarchal society. yet. All of this dignity is being thrown towards women in a way that is what I think should be surprising to us given the setting. And so Genesis chapter 12, through 15 is called the patriarchal narratives, right, the the stories of the patriarchs of Israel, but the Bible sets forth where you could call it the matriarchal narratives as well, because in fact, Israel's future is in the hands of women over and over again. And this is what really highlights it. Sarah, a barren woman is told she'll have a child or Abrams told he'll have a child. She's like, well, I'm dried up. So take my hand. Made in Hagar, right? she gets pregnant and has a child named Ishmael and a Avram lives for 13 years imagining that's the answer. See, God did come through on his promise. And God God shows up in chapter eight Ts is no, no, no, no, no. I know for the last 13 years, you've been imagining that that was my answer. But actually, Sarah is going to have a child. She laughs Abraham laughs No one can grasp that. Long story short, she has a miracle child, that miracle child finds a wife and she's barren Rebecca. He prays for her. And then she has two children as a son Jacob, right? Jacob finds his favorite of his four women and she's barren. And so in succession, three barren matriarchs, I mean, so that and it doesn't stop there, you have what you could call an emphasis on barren women in Genesis, or even some have called it those who are like socially barren. There's a story about Tamar, who acts as a prostitute and she gets some very, she gets better coverage than we'd want to give her in Scripture, right because of the way she behaved, but she's doing something. God is using women to move the story forward, sibling rivalry between sisters, competitions to have kids, God is choosing these stories to bring forth not just any old people, but according to Scripture, the rescue squad for all creation. And so his his way is to up for the most down and out the most marginalized, and use that to bring forth salvation for the world is amazing. And so barren women appear at important moments in Israel story. And I think the point is, don't get too big for your britches, thinking you're so great because you are miracle children of barren women. even think of Moses the story of Moses, when he shows up it's midwives, Egyptian midwives that are facilitating Israel's deliverance. It's all the way of saying that women played a role. Remember, they are called helpers, like, Well, here's the evidence, like, this is the idea like, God is choosing for a backdrop for his salvific work, women and men too. But I think women in a way that again, would be revolutionary in the ancient world, and even some parts of our Western society would say, well, women play a bigger role than they should, that there is a an emphasis. So when you get to places like the poem that the end of Proverbs, Proverbs 31, what is it 10 through 31. It's an acrostic poem, like abcdefg, like, you know, maybe that's so that you could memorize it, but probably, it's just a way of communicating totality, like the woman of valor, women of strength, I guess, however, you want to translate that, but she his or her life is, you know, I think you want to be careful if I was a woman, and I read proverbs 31, I would be like, holy cow, I cannot be like that. Like, I'm glad it's a woman and not a man actually, because she is so active, and so involved in so effective, that it almost overwhelms you. But I think it's a larger point about a woman of God, a woman of strength is one who has currency, right? She has an effect in society, her husband's reputation is connected to her effective work. It's really cool. In the Massa retic texts, the Hebrew Scriptures are in a different, they're organized differently than our what we call the Old Testament, same books, different order. And proverbs shows up in what is the third section of the Hebrew Scripture called the writings. And those are organized to some degree based on liturgical texts like different texts that are read at different holidays. And so proverbs ends with eshet Heil the woman of strength, this incredibly effective woman that is like a new standard. And remember, Proverbs is written to men, it's a father talking to a son, and he wants to tell his son about the effectiveness of a woman as a capstone to the whole book. Here's what you should be like, and it's a woman. But then you read about this eshet Heil. That's the lesson you read about in Proverbs, you turn the page in the next book is Ruth, just read on Pentecost and right away we're told Ruth is eschewed Kyle. And so it's like pulling that thread. The Bible is even organized to show. Here's this woman of valor. And then you get this embodied in Ruth. And Ruth is characterized by a word that is used to describe God Himself. Yes, it is. It's like this deserved kind loyalty. That's Israel's way of talking about their God. Ruth embodies that. And so these are all again, I'm kind of all over the place, I realized that but you know, you can't do a systematic study of each woman in Scripture because there's too many. In fact, the cumulative weight of women in Scripture is unbelievable, like a three to one with men, because there's named and unnamed. But I mean, these are some you said, vignettes are these moments within, in Scripture, wherein women, the movement forward in God's will is in the hands of women, which is why scandalous women show up in the very first chapter of the New Testament, which is a list of Jesus's family, right? I mean, that would be blown away like your you know, list, like you said, patrilineal here is not just women, but women that whose reputation could go one way or the other. But they're characterized my faith.
Travis Albritton:And just to pull some clips, some little snippets from proverbs 31, that if you just read through it, you might breeze past these things and not think anything of them. But in the context of trying to understand how would an Israelite view women in their role in society, this is again, a woman who is lifted up at the end of Proverbs as being the culmination of this Book of Wisdom, right? She considers a field and buys it. Right. Right. So she's not just like managing the youngins and making sure that the laundry gets done on time. She's purchasing real estate, right on behalf of her family. Right. She you know, we do get some things that Yeah, that sounds a little closer to what we would think she gets up while it is still night. She provides food for her family and portions for her female servants. You know, that's what proceeds right before we just read. But then we see that she's active, right? she opens her arms to the poor, extends her hands to the needy, implying not just like her personally, but her resources, her family's resources. Right,
Jason Alexander:right. Totally.
Travis Albritton:She you know that her husband, verse 23, is respected at the city gate because of her. right because of her reputation. Yeah. And that she watches over the affairs of her household, she speaks with wisdom, her children Gall, her blast, her husband calls her blessed. And then I love this right? Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all. charm is deceptive. And beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. And so we see Yeah, this whole picture, right of a woman who doesn't just fit our perception of what an ancient Mesopotamian civilization might have thought of what women should be. But really this well rounded, very active member contributing member of her household of her society, of the economy, of the political nature of how cities were run. So that would be like city gates, elders. That's, that's like going to your local state legislature and play a role in that. Right. And so we see, like you said, this is lifted up as the woman to aspire to be, as in Israel lights,
Jason Alexander:right, which suggests that you could be like that. Yeah. So it wouldn't be it wouldn't necessarily be on the level of independence of this woman. Yeah. And I love that I picture like people coming to the city gates and seeing her husband like, may you lucky. Like that, that is a such an honor to be married to a woman of God. Right. And I think that's the larger point here is that we're talking about a vision for gender that is not dictated by culture. It's really cool.
Travis Albritton:So to wrap up this episode, and just kind of like drive home, maybe like some of our assumptions about how women were viewed in the Old Testament could be a little off. We're gonna get to individuals. Okay. The first one we find is in the book of Judges, the very beginning.
Jason Alexander:Are we talking about Deborah, we are talking about depth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So judges has a special interest in women. And like in the book of Genesis, judges at key moments in the story, women show up, named and unnamed, and in fact, in Judges, you have another There are five barren women in the Old Testament and in Judges, Samson's mother, the wife of Manitowoc, it's another instance of at a key moment in Israel's history, God ops for not just a woman, but a barren woman to bring forth to deliver. But throughout Deborah is the first of many women in the book of Judges that play a significant role. And this is add a, there might be a commentary here on the men to some degree too, because again, imagine a patriarchal setting for these texts. And judges mad judges should come with an NC 70 warning like it is. It's rough, like no joke. It's upsetting, like, for me, especially the last few chapters, and I'm just To ask like, you know, really like you could have given us in Scripture, you could edit it some of that. But, but there it is. And I think the point is to describe Israel at a, at a very low moment while there without any direction. Their hearts are restless in the words of Augustine, right. So Deborah shows up and the other one is jail. Right? She drives a tent peg into his Cicero's head like That's right. Yeah, the deliverers, like, are women. And so I don't know what to say about that much more than Well, yeah, there you go. Again, there's, there's more instances of, you know, yeah, you don't get this image of Donna Reed, or June cleaver, right. Like, she's at home, vacuuming and making dinner, she's like, women will make moves, they will move things forward and cause problems for Israel's enemies. And it's important given the patriarchal setting in which Israel lived, that you have stories like that, because they would potentially be scandalizing. Right? Women rising up and catch and rec, as we used to say, right, like moving things forward. So it's more evidence of a redemptive view of the female sex.
Travis Albritton:So when we get introduced to Deborah, in Judges, chapter four, verse four, we find out, you know, Israel, done messed up again, right, and God says, Alright, fine, here's another foreign enemy to come in and conquer you. And then in verse four, we get introduced to Deborah, in the book of Judges, as a judge, but also as a prophet. So help us understand like, what that would mean, that she's not just the political leader of Israel, but also the spiritual leader at this time.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, I mean, it's more evidence of, I don't want to say radical, but it is a it is a subversive picture of women. And yeah, it's not like, Oh, you know, if there would have been a better man, a man could have done the job better. And there weren't all men, you know, like, I, I guess you could say that you can see that here. But I see more, the Spirit of God is involved in raising up these prophets and judges. So this was God's choice. So yeah, to to be a prophet is in some sense, right to speak for on behalf of the deity. So I don't get the impression I was messing with Deborah. You know, like she is she's a leader in Israel. And you could put an Asterix next to that, like people want to, they say, Well, yeah, she was a leader, when there were no better men. It's like, and you're like, it doesn't change the fact that, that this is who God has chosen to raise up, and there'll be plenty of men in judges that don't do half as good as she does. I don't know if that's what you're driving.
Travis Albritton:Well, and because I think the the contrast is often made to the guy who's leaving the army at this time. Oh, risposte supposed to be right barrack. And, and we get this really interesting story where, you know, Deborah would sit under a tree and she would offer judgments in a very similar way that we see Moses do for the people of Israel in a similar way that we see David supposed to be doing in his kingship. And then Brock is like, Hey, we got this enemy over here. Deborah says go fight them. God says you need to fight him. And he's like, I'm not going unless you're going. Yep. And so one way this has been read is like Brock should have been leading but because he was incapable or a poor leader. Got had to settle for Deborah to like, go and make this thing happen. Brock didn't think that no, no, no, not at all. The impression you get is, Brock knows. Yeah. Hey, we need you. We need Deborah. Yeah, I'm gonna make sure that this thing turns out favorably.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, that's good. I need to spend more time with that, Deborah, there. It's overwhelming. You know, this just re iterates the fact to me, cuz I'm very interested in how women are portrayed in Scripture. But there's, it's just too There's too many, which should tell you something. There are so many amazing stories of women, like Deborah that I just I need to spend more time with.
Corina Espejo:So Deborah is one and I love hearing about many of these women, as you're mentioning, let's talk about Esther. I know Esther for 12 to 17. Right? We're looking at this dynamic between Mordecai. And really one of the statements is Mordecai did as Esther commanded right and even going as far Travis you mentioned right Esther for 29 to 32 that she even mandates the Festival of pyram. But there's this dynamic here. Let's let's talk a little bit about Esther.
Jason Alexander:Once again. You know, we talked about how help as the idea of deliverance from whether big or small Moments of need. And Esther shows up at a time when Israel's identity is under serious threat. Right. And this is one of my advisors did a lot of work in, in. So I guess it was one of my undergrad advisors did a lot of work with Esther. And I, I feel bad that I never really sought him out to learn more. But the woman here is is again a deliverer securing procuring Israel safe safety at a time when they're out to stamp them out. Right. And so she is viewed as a hero of of the faith. So there's no apology for that. Again, we'd like to put an Asterix next to these, because we're assuming that scripture wants to endorse a patriarchal vision of society, and all that that means, but I think the Bible is setting forth like nope, yeah, women are important to God to you. And they're important in his plan.
Travis Albritton:And if we draw a thread back to the discussion we had about Genesis two about this aser word, again that deliver we see both Mordecai and Esther play that role in the story. Right that it is it is more to Kai's persuasion, great point that encourages Esther to step into that role. So being the help that Esther needs to be who God has positioner to be setting her up to then be the help that Israel needs in that position of authority. And then, like Kareena mentioned at the end of the book, Esther is the one who puts the stamp of approval on the festival pyram to save this shall now be a new festival, for the Israelites forever and ever. Amen. Right that before they were festivals established, and the Torah, by Moses in the desert. Right, right, right. And so now all of a sudden, you got Esther, say, Oh, this is now a new festival that we will have as an Israelite community to remember when God delivered us out of the hands of Harmon.
Jason Alexander:Yeah, that's such a great point. It's interesting. All of the holidays like these five books, they involve women in interesting ways, like Lamentations is read on to Shabbat of commemorating the fall of the temple. Lamentations is offered in a feminine voice, Song of Songs has an emphasis on the woman that's that's the Passover reading. And these are feminine parts of the Bible, read at the holiest moments of Israel's story. So they're not discriminating within tradition, like we want to, I'm convinced, or at least some parts of the church wants to because of less sophisticated readings of Paul, at the end of the day, but you're right, she has some serious clout. in society, yeah.
Travis Albritton:So if you're feeling overwhelmed, by just the sheer number of stories, instances where feminine figures take positions of leadership and authority within the Israelite community, you should feel overwhelmed because it is overwhelming, when you actually read into it. Now, we're not saying this to say and now all leaders shall be women forever and ever. We've already established right, like, fathers are good. Men are good women are good. When God created man and women, he said, very good, right? So this, we're not saying this to replace the gendered pneus of the order of creation, but simply to highlight and point out that the way that God views women can stand in stark contrast to the way that we think a religious community should view women at least in the way that we think of the value of women, the role of women, the capacity of women, to step up, and to move the mission of God forward, which I just think is incredible. And is just completely consistent with everything else we know about God and how he loves each of us, right that there is no male woman, Jew, Gentile, slave free to God. We're all image bearers. We're all his children. Yeah. So it's cool to see that reinforced over and over again, in the stories that he's given us in the Bible. Well said Corina, you want to bring us home with some some takeaways,
Corina Espejo:as we kind of look at the takeaways and I love just to interweave and I'll be honest model for you all, real time. For some of you there might be pain points in this and that's okay. I'm going to be vulnerable with all of you like listening at first to Jason kind of walking through Wow, the progression of the narrative in the Bible was continued through women. Honestly, at first it was based on their pregnancy and being able to produce babies. I'll be honest with you, there was a part of me that was, at first a little like, Oh, I feel awkwardly threatened and a little odd about that. And but I have to stop and ask myself why, like, Why do I feel that threat? And is it appropriate for me? And this is where I think I have to honor Okay, yes, I do feel threatened. But why as a modern day woman in the time that I'm in now? And is it appropriate for me to impose that perspective on the biblical narrative that was written on a different time for a different sentiment? And I love what you mentioned, Jason, that that actually, it's almost like it's a clause that women were to be honored because of their contribution to the narrative, particularly for redemption, as you mentioned, right for thinking about that list of women that led to Jesus right. There is honor woven there. But I do have to wrestle with that, that I have to be honest, and say, Well, wait a second. Why did I feel some type of way? Hearing that hearing that women's initial pardon in the narrative and progression was in pregnancy was in childbearing, and to see that it doesn't have to be as villainous or nefarious as as maybe a modern day Kareena may feel that it's okay to say, you know what, God is good, that he partnered with women, and then later to see the many ways that he also use both men and women, their mutuality, as well as their complimentary roles, that that these are not indications of men being superior to women, or vice versa, right? That we really are talking about. God valuing who we are, as image bearers to continue this incredible story of love, of said of Covenant love, and redemption. And there are so many examples for those of you who are like, man, I just want to know more great because there's so many more examples of women taking the lead, but also honoring their partnership with men to live out God's will in his heart. We're still not at the point, though, where we can say definitively like what women or men can and can't do. You know, so for example, y'all are just waiting. Can women preach on a Sunday, we're not there yet. And we're not going to take the bait, so don't even go for it. Don't do it. I love this, this, these are great conversations that honestly give me incredible, incredible just hope and vision. Not just for myself as a woman, but even for the brothers in my life for the men in my life. How exciting and fun. And you know, we mentioned the word. All right, there's incredible are there for what God can do with people who just love him and want to be more like Him and want other people to be more like Him. It's very, very cool.
Travis Albritton:Yeah, Jason, you're muted. By the way,
Jason Alexander:I was laughing and saying, amen. No doubt.
Travis Albritton:Well, and if you're curious why we're taking so much time in the Old Testament, before we get to the passages that you're probably curious about, it's because those writings from Paul was even the Apostle Peter said, he can be very confusing, if you just are trying to read and understand what he's talking about. This is all the backdrop for how the writers of the New Testament thought about God and their spiritual heritage. So when they talk about roles in the church, when they talk about genders, when they talk about, you know, spiritual gifts in the spirit at work, they're making all these kinds of connections to the Old Testament that if you don't have that foundation, can be very jarring. And so this groundwork we're laying, it will bear fruit. Once we get to those more difficult passages, we're going to be able to look back and reference the work we've done to help gain clarity about some of the most contested, most misunderstood and misconstrued verses in the entire Bible. So this is not a small thing we're trying to do. But by taking it slow, and making sure we have a big understanding of the Bible as a whole, that's going to give us more tools at our disposal to make sense of things that don't make a lot of sense when you first read them. It's good. Now, if you have not yet signed up to be a part of the podcast newsletter, make sure you do that just go to women church podcast Comm. We'll send you updates about new episodes as they come out, as well as additional guides and resources to help you with your own personal Bible study and implementing the things that we were talking about along the way. And make sure to stay tuned next week, where Jason will be joining us once again. And we are actually going to go into the New Testament. We're going to look at the ministry of Jesus and the role that women played in that ministry.