In this episode, Corina and Travis dig into three different styles of hermeneutics and discuss why each of them are relevant to discover God's will for men and women in the church.
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In this episode, Corina and Travis dig into three different styles of hermeneutics and discuss why each of them are relevant to discover God's will for men and women in the church.
Resources We Mentioned:
Sign up to receive Bible study guides, handouts, and resources that complement what you learn in this podcast by going to WomenChurchPodcast.com
Welcome back to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look at what the Bible teaches about women in church for the ICOC. Corina, we are on episode six,
Corina Espejo:We are here,
Travis Albritton:we have made it clear, you're still with us. We are grateful. We've covered a lot of ground rather quickly. So we've talked through more than two thirds of the Bible within five episodes, really just laying the groundwork for what does the Bible holistically have to say about women? And so before we get into some of the juicy your scriptures, once you've probably tuned into this podcast to hear about, we wanted to just take a quick overview, look at how should we read these passages? How should we read and understand the scriptures? And how do we make sure we're asking the right questions from the scriptures and you have a couple resources you wanted to share? That'll be really illuminating as we talk about the art of biblical interpretation.
Corina Espejo:Yeah, so my favorite and as we're begin to talk about interpreting scripture, and even just hermeneutics, and I know, it's, some of you are gonna say, why, why are we doing this? Why does hermeneutics matter? Before we get into that, let's just talk about what it is. Steve canard, his book, getting the most from the Bible. He offers different principles with regards to reading the Bible. And digging deeper into Bible study, he defines hermeneutics. He says, hermeneutics is the study of the principles that pertain to the proper interpretation of Scripture. In other words, hermeneutics is studying how to interpret. Now we've mentioned x Jesus, and he puts these terms stacks right one up one after another. He then goes on to define x of Jesus, which we've mentioned in this podcast, that is the practice of application of the principles of correct biblical interpretation. This should be what we do, whenever we study the Bible, then this is something we haven't talked about, but it's good to again, look at these terms, one after another exposition. exposition is the communication of one's interpretation of Scripture to another. This occurs whenever we preach or teach the scriptures. So it's just really good when you're thinking about Okay, what are we talking about? What are we doing? Let's, let's dive a little bit into this. And then one last just tidbit. It's Jeannie Shaw's description, from the view from Paul's window, her book, and she says, our hermeneutic determines how we will interpret the scriptures, our hermeneutic is the way in which we apply scripture the way in which we ask, how does this passage apply to my life today? And that is the big question. And that is generally how people read the Bible. Right? They want to know, what does this mean for me. And so I think it is skilled, I'll say it that way, it's skilled for us not to avoid what hermeneutics is and why it matters. Because at the heart of it, it's a big part of being a Christian and using the Bible to help us through life.
Travis Albritton:Right. And you may be listening to this, you may be familiar with that word, you've heard it in a Bible study class, or a Sunday school class or something like that. And I know for a long time for me, I always thought of hermeneutics is just like that middle step, taking the Bible for what it is and what it has to offer, doing something in the middle, and then figuring out what am I gonna do with my life now as a disciple, and it's important to recognize that there actually is a middle step? Right there. We're not just reading the Bible and doing what it says. There's always an interpretation in the middle, you know, and you might contend with that idea that you say, No, no, like, when Jesus says, do something, I do it. But there are lots of things in the Bible that it says very specifically and very directly, that we don't do. Because from the view of proper interpretation, we know, that's either not relevant to the situation we're trying to figure out. Or it was meant in a context that's different than ours. And so it's not something that we should practice or it would be good to practice as a faith community. And so interpretation is not a bad thing. It's actually really necessary really important for proper Bible study. But we got to make sure we're doing it right. And understanding the different frameworks that you can look at the Bible through is very helpful and kind of breaking those down. So in this episode, we're going to walk through three hermeneutics, that you may have some level of connection to either personally, or you've heard of these, and how each of them gives us a different flavor of what the Bible has to offer. And in order to kind of go through a case study, we're actually going to read a passage that is pretty popularly connected to the question of women's roles in ministry and women's roles in the church. And that is Galatians chapter three, verse 26, through 29. So Corina, you are the voice of the Bible app here on the women in the church podcast. So why don't you go ahead and read Galatians chapter three, verse 26 through 29 for us
Corina Espejo:can do I'm waiting for my paycheck, by the way, my voice over paycheck. Alright. Galatians 3:26 to 29. So in Christ Jesus, you are all children of God. Through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ, have closed yourselves with Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. And I read that in an IV. So that's the password we're
Travis Albritton:going to be dissecting from multiple angles. And the first hermeneutic we're going to talk about is what in the Church of Christ circles is called the blueprints hermeneutic. And as we describe this, this may feel very familiar, because this is the predominant hermeneutic or interpretation that historically the international Churches of Christ have used. And it's this idea that when we think about church practice, and we think about how we do church, whether it's bible talks or worship services on Sundays, or you know, discipling, relationships, those kind of things, we're trying to model, a pattern that we are looking for in the New Testament. Yeah, right, that there is, there is a way to do the kingdom of God as Christians laid out with examples and commands in, especially acts and the epistles the letters of Paul. And that pattern informs how we worship, then how we do church. And so the questions that you will ask, whenever you're trying to dig down to an answer about something related to worship or ministry, is what are the authorized church practices that we see observed in Acts and the epistles that will reflect this worshiping in spirit and in truth approach that Jesus lays out for us in john chapter four, right. And that really is the emphasis of the restoration movement, which is our spiritual heritage, that we're connected to the churches of Christ and the Christian churches in that way. And so that is the blueprint hermeneutic we are looking to the Bible to help us understand how did the original Christians try to do church? And then how do we imitate the aspects of that are both relevant and constructive for us today?
Corina Espejo:Yeah, and I grew up on this, I didn't realize it until now. And now I just mean, in my later, the most recent years of my spiritual journey, but growing up with this tool, and I'll call them tools, right? They're just different ways that we interpret there's nothing overtly bad, there's nothing overtly good. It'll just depend on the situation and how we use this tool, I'm not going to use a hammer to try and take off a bolt, right, I need a wrench. So thinking about these hermeneutics, as we go through them that way will be super helpful. So I grew up. This is the tool of choice blueprint hermeneutic. Some of the strengths with blueprint hermeneutic are that it places a high emphasis on Bible study and obedience, I find often, church cultures that have blueprint hermeneutic, the culture itself can feel very secure, because things are very clear expectations are super clear. And it's this is what we do, this is what we don't do. That's the strength and in a very delicate way. I think the downside to that the weakness is going to be that it really draws in those who tend to fall more on it, a legalistic way of looking at things and definitely not in any kind of a good way. We all need lawyers. That's not what we're talking about here. legalism, it can often come across as prideful. And the expression you have here is majoring in the minors. And I think it really draws in those and again, these things that I'm going to mention they're not overtly bad, but I want you all to think about yourself. This type of tool blueprint hermeneutic will draw in those I've seen more inclined towards absolutism. Black and White thinkers. This is right, this is wrong, we do this, we don't do that. And it tends to draw on those types of people, but not in a good way, it tends to draw them out in a way that comes across incredibly judgmental. So but there's going to be pros and cons, to all of these things. Actually, there's a podcast that Kyle Spears does called truth, trauma and theology. And he interviews a brother Dave, I forget his last name, but they talk a little bit about this in a very gracious way. But it's so eye opening to see okay, when we only choose blueprint hermeneutic and how that can guide our culture and the both the downsides, and even some benefits, but mostly being careful not to repeat history. I love that episode that they do. And it definitely helps me to see the place that blueprint hermeneutic can have. And it's not going to be the tool of choice always and it shouldn't be so.
Travis Albritton:Right Well, and just to kind of reiterate the good and the bad. Like there are times where no, we really do want to know, what were the early Christians committed to and how do we model that because they were the closest to Jesus. Right? They were learning directly from the apostle who had lived with Jesus? And so those are valuable pieces of insight and wisdom that it would be wrong for us to not consider and to try and figure out how do we incorporate that into our worship? Yeah. But if we look at how that way of thinking has shaped other denominations related to ours, and even to ours, what ends up happening is you start drawing a lot of lines in the sand, and getting bogged down in questions about like, very finessed topics, you know, should communion be from one cup, or from many cups? There have been lines drawn in the sand on that question? Because if there is a timeless pattern in the New Testament, and it's vitally important, we get it right. And you're convinced that you figured it out, then you owe it to everyone else to explain why they're wrong. And get them to your to see your side, right. And so we can place so much emphasis on trying to discover this pattern of how the church that it can, instead of seeking to bring us together in a youth unified fashion, and just dividing us more, because now it's, you know, if you don't hold to everything that I understand about how to do church, then we can't do church together. And so again, that's not to say that, it's not a bad thing that we should want to do what God has called us to, and the New Testament does give us that information. But we just want to make sure that it's also consistent with the way that we see Jesus to his ministry, and also the way that we see the church actually functioning in the New Testament. Because if you look through the New Testament, and you look at the writing styles of Peter of James, of Paul, of john, they don't necessarily lean on this type of hermeneutic. When explaining why certain commands are important, or rooting it in the Old Testament, instead, they lean more on the second hermeneutic. We're going to talk about here in a second. But before we get there, if we're thinking about applying this blueprint, hermeneutic to this passage we just read, and to the question at large of what is the role of women in the church, then the question you're going to approach the Bible with is which scriptures and acts in the epistles directly answer the question we are asking. Yep. And if we find some, that do seem to directly answer that question, those scriptures, and those scriptures only will determine our church practice, because after all, we're not a church from the Old Testament. We're not the Israelites. Jesus's ministry was pre Christian, right, it was still a Jewish ministry. And so if we want to know how we're gonna do Christian church, then those are the scriptures that we will look to, to inform our understanding of how to answer this question,
Corina Espejo:as you're talking. And as I'm thinking about blueprint, hermeneutic. And I think back to the question, Jeannie Shaw, draws, right if we're going to do hermeneutik, it's going to be because we want to answer the question, how does this passage apply to my life today? I think growing up with blueprint hermeneutik, one of the strengths which as as we continue to mature and develop, might become a negative. But I think if you find that it's a strength, I wonder if you've experienced something I did growing up, which was being secure, and clarity. And I find there was room in my brain to just to continue life because things were just clear, it was like, this is what we're doing. This is what the Bible says, let's just do it. Right. And I think there were some benefits to that to my faith in that I didn't have to kind of Bumble around in an insecure or like unsure manner. I think where my faith began to stretch was I began to rely too much on those lines in the sand, I was relying on those to dictate my faith. And it didn't leave much room for the Holy Spirit to guide me and to understand a really big, majestic God. But there are certainly things about God that are finite that are that are very clear, in I think, very simple, beautifully simple ways and that everything doesn't have to be more than that, that things can stay simple for a good reason. So I know Galatians 328 we're looking at blueprint hermeneutics, yes, and how we can look at Galatians 326 to 29 I want to hear your thoughts if I'm following a blueprint. hermeneutic How would I look at the passage we read in Galatians?
Travis Albritton:So if you're looking at the Bible from a blueprint, hermeneutic trying to answer the question, what is the role of women in church in the public assembly? This passage is not relevant to answering that question. The reason is because it's not directly speaking to that. Right. It's speaking to grace and salvation at large that, you know, we are all Abraham's children. Now, whether You are a male, female, Jew, Gentile, slave free. And so that speaks to the grace of God, it speaks to this, this idea that, you know, Christianity is not just for the Jews anymore. And there's no delineation between, like, if you're a slave if you're a free person, you know, and even today, we think, you know, the ICRC, we're very diverse. We're a very diverse group of churches, which is one of our strengths is something we're really great, really great at is we have a lot of diversity within our churches. And so we totally embody that spirit of like, yeah, like, there's no people group that we would ever consider excluding from the Gospel. Right. But that, in and of itself, does not necessarily directly answer the question of, well, can a woman preach on a Sunday? And so if you're doing a study of the New Testaments, trying to get to this question, from a blueprint, hermeneutic, then you wouldn't look to this scripture to necessarily help you answer that. So for
Corina Espejo:a blueprint, hermeneutic, this scripture is irrelevant. Like this has nothing to say to me on on women's roles.
Travis Albritton:I mean, nothing is like really strong. It's a nice footnote to kind of add to the spirit in the heart of the gospel. But if we're getting into like, okay, order of service on Sunday, someone's delivering the sermon. Is that a man or a woman? Or can it be a man or a woman? Doesn't matter? This passage would not answer that from that perspective.
Corina Espejo:Okay. We have more more tools to go through more hermeneutics
Travis Albritton:more
Corina Espejo:tools. Let's go through so we have our next one theological hermeneutic. Yeah. Would you define that one?
Travis Albritton:So theological hermeneutic, would be looking at the Bible as a way of informing our view of God, you know, that within the ICSC and the restoration movement, other Christians have looked at us and said, Oh, your Trinity is God, Jesus and the Holy Bible. And, and so we can definitely overemphasize the Bible at the expense of understanding the being on the other side of it, right? So a theological hermeneutic would be looking at the Bible as a way of understanding who God is seeing what he has done in the lives of people that in the way that he's interacted with believers through human history, in order to know what is required of us, or how might we participate in God's mission? And so the question that you would ask, if we're digging into this women in the church question is, what is the heart of God towards men and women? And how can we imitate that in our church practices? Right? How can the way we do church, the way we interact with each other, the way we relate to each other, the way we live out our one another scriptures? How can the practice of the way we do that reflects the heart of God, in everything that we do? The great
Corina Espejo:thing about theological hermeneutic, it often looks for a big picture narrative, the holistic view of Scripture, and it really looks to see okay, everything is relevant. from Old Testament New Testament, this passage is going to tell me something not just here. But the big picture story. It can be super resilient and not be as affected by the world and the culture that can change over time or region to region, it can feel a little bit more, I'll say, static, in how it looks at scripture, because it's just looking at it within God who God is. The weaknesses is that it often emphasizes knowledge over action, I think people can feel like those who tend to constantly pull for them from theological hermeneutic tool, go for that. They come across as apathetic and indifferent. They're constantly thinking about things rather than acting. I also wonder, and these are all just, I'm considering these concepts. But I wonder if theological hermeneutic speaks to and draws in the idealist or the contextual list or relativist, and it really draws those people in that might this might be their tool of choice, theological hermeneutic. And if you don't know what that is, Google it, and I'll probably make more sense. But these are some of those things, I wonder, because it keeps things in this philosophical heti this is God, rather than say, blueprint hermeneutic of what do we do? Okay, let's let's do something Galatians 328, you made it, you made a connection here, if I'm looking at this with a theological hermeneutic mind, how would I, what would I pull from Galatians? Three?
Travis Albritton:So especially in the context of this question, right? What is the Bible? What does the Bible communicate about God's heart towards men and women, as image bearers as partners in his mission? Through creation? We see an echo of Genesis two, with Galatians three, we see a fulfillments of sorts, right? And that reinforces that in God's good creation, there is not meant to be a power structure. Among in between image bearers of one person, using force or power, to take advantage of or oppress another one, and that we see that dynamic played out in the kingdom of God, right that we're all sinners at the foot of the cross, or you've probably heard that statement echoed from many a pulpit. And that's totally true. And the scripture really speaks to that. Right? That it doesn't matter if in the world, you're a slave or not, it doesn't matter if you're a man in a male dominated society, or if you're a woman, right? It does not matter in the kingdom of God. We're all equal here. And so that should be reflected in how we relate to and serve one another. Now, one thing I was thinking about, as I was putting this note in the outline, that can sounds like we're saying that there should be no leadership in the church, right? That there's no hierarchy, there's no structure, there's no, there's no power structures, where one person is dictating to others in God's creation, and potentially, in this kingdom of God that we're talking about. That means we have no leaders. Well, that's definitely not what we're saying, because it is a spiritual gift. After all, leadership is something that God has in the church, there's a lot of Scripture that talks about Jesus, servant style leadership, right. But what we do see in the Bible, and what Galatians three speaks to is that in the kingdom of God, everyone is equally valued, and called to use their gifts to edify the body of Christ. And so you know, a common refrain that we've used in our movement is that every disciples in the full time ministry, right, whether you're on staff or not, that everyone is called to fulfill the mission of God. And that's really what Galatians three is talking about that, whether you're in the full time ministry, preaching from behind a pulpit, or if you're stacking chairs in the back, or if you're leading a small group, or you going on a mission planting, like we're all equally valuable in the family of God. And Galatians. Three is really speaking to that heart.
Corina Espejo:Let's move on to the third one, I'm
Travis Albritton:ready, you're ready to go?
Corina Espejo:Ready. I think it was a great, it was great. So trajectory hermeneutic. This is the third tool we'll be talking about today. And again, I call them tools, trajectory. hermeneutic. Alright, what's the Travis synopsis of trajectory hermeneutic? Well, and
Travis Albritton:this one is probably the least known, because it's really trying to summarize a bunch of different ideas together into something that's kind of concise. If you want to get a more detailed kind of rundown of what this would look like. We have a link in our resources list, to a paper that the Midwest teachers circle, put together from inside of our family of churches, on seeking a clear human hermeneutic and the role of women. And in there, they lay out what this trajectory hermeneutic looks like. But essentially, the trajectory hermeneutic is analyzing the trajectory of God's will, as is revealed over time, to discern where God is taking his people and his creation. Now, what does that mean? If we're looking at the Bible, as a story that has a beginning, a middle and an end, and the people at the beginning of the story, the Abraham's with the world, that lived in the ancient world, they were experiencing God in a different way. Because they were even before Moses there before that you had the law before Israel is even a thing. And so there's a certain way that God interacts with them. And then we see the nation of Israel, and there's a certain way that God interacts with them, and the kind of instruction he gives to them the kind of expectation he has for them, as the people of God, and then we get to Jesus, and Jesus says, a lot of this, you have heard it said, but I'd say unto you, kind of language, right? You've heard it said, Do not murder. Well, I tell you don't even become angry with your brother, right? Or, you know, you've heard it said, do not commit adultery, I tell you don't even lust, right? And so there's this progression of God's will, how he wants creation to function, unveiled over time, through the Bible. And this idea of a trajectory is if, if at the beginning of the Bible, we shoot an arrow, there's a target downrange. And that arrow is carrying us through the narrative of the Bible towards this targets. And the trajectory hermeneutic is trying to figure out what is the targets? Yeah, where are we going? Where is God taking us? Another concept that's very helpful in trying to kind of pick apart what this hermeneutic would be, is this idea of God's ultimate will, or his provisional will, and the differences between them so ultimate, well, the what is God really wants? At the end of the day, at the end of time, what does God desire? What does God crave? And there are things that we know about that, like we know God wants to be reconciled? He wants to destroy the barrier that sin creates between him and his image bearers. We know that Jesus has been given all three Right, like those are, those are God's ultimate will. provisional will are things that he allows in the moments that are not reflective of what he actually wants. So some examples from the Old Testament polygamy, right? So Abraham, God's chosen dude says, All right, Sarah is not having any kids. So let me just go ahead and impregnate her servants. And then we get to Israel and the founding fathers, the 12 pillars, the 12 tribes, those 12 men were born from for women. Yeah, but the same husband. By the time we get to Jesus's day, polygamy is all but disappeared. In the nation of Israel, right? they've identified this is not God's will. This is not what God wants, we get indications of that, and the laws that they put that he puts forth. In the Torah, we see negative examples of how polygamy goes awry. And so we can see, if we pick apart the details, okay? God does not want polygamy, that's not as intense as somebody once. And so we can actually see that progress through Scripture. Slavery would be another example. So slavery in the Bible is not necessarily talked about in the way that us in the 21st century would hope or wish that God would talk about right that we see that there are certain rules and laws put in place in the Old Testament regarding how Israelites were to treat slaves. Even in the New Testament, we see Paul giving instructions to slaves and to their masters. And so if you're just looking at this as like, this is exactly what God wants, then, as our brothers and sisters did 150 years ago, you could look at the Bible and say, Well, it seems like slavery is a part of God's creation. Right? There's nothing in the Bible that overtly says, slavery bad. It's just be really, really good to your slaves is kind of the message that you get if you're just looking at the Bible, on its own. But if you look at the progression of the teaching of the Bible towards slavery, then you get this full story that culminates in what we've talked about this idea of image bearers, and power structures, and how that was not God's intent. And draw a very straight line to slavery is not a part of the kingdom of God in the way that God wants it to be. And so this trajectory, hermeneutic would take us there, that even if the Bible itself does not say, Christians can't own slaves, we can look at it and say, I mean, it very clearly is pointing us in that direction. So that's where we should go. We shouldn't say, let's completely resurrect the first century church, and just leave it locked in time. We want to also learn from their mistakes. We want to also see what God was doing with them in the context of those scriptures and those passages in the books of the Bible and try to discern, where does he want us to go from here? Where should we go from here? And how should that impact the way that we do church, the way that we evangelize and the way that we disciple each other?
Corina Espejo:Yeah, it's interesting. I looking at, you know, blueprint theological. And as you're talking within trajectory, which era is not the most popular, but the question kind of comes up, okay, should restoring the practices of the first century church be our goal as a fellowship? when we're thinking about things in a trajectory? hermeneutic? You know, in a lot of ways, we'd say no, because then we would bring back slavery because that that did exist in the first century church. And we would think, well, that's okay, then right. Michael burns, he interviews, Dr. Richard Rodriguez on his podcast, all things to all people. And they do a phenomenal job of breaking that down and in saying exactly what you're saying. So if you want to hear a little bit more about that and dive a little bit more, we have resources, they are out there, there are resources for you, to really look at these things in different angles. One of the positives, this shrinks to trajectory hermeneutic. It points us to God's intent, just like you're talking about beyond the fallen world we live in. And it helps us to understand why the Bible omits things we would expect it to say, and it in a similar fashion to theological hermeneutic. It kind of gives us the big picture, but it's not necessarily big picture about God, and who he is. It's more of a big picture of where we're going, what we should be aiming for, and not just what do we do right here in the moment. One of the weaknesses to direct trajectory hermeneutic is that we can read conclusions into the Bible that aren't actually there. And it can leave people feeling unsafe or even radical to some individuals in a way that is almost independent of God we feel we're kind of going outside of what is plain what is simple to create a story that isn't there yet that hasn't been written. And we're taking it upon ourselves to to write them and you know, Again, the weakness I and I don't know if it's a weakness, but I think, trajectory hermeneutic, it tends to draw in those inclined to a certain realism and an analysis. These individuals love analyzing things, and drawing conclusions. And this is where we're at, this is what it was. And this is where it will, will be. And those things in and of themselves don't have to be bad, but I can definitely see, I could definitely see where that can go awry.
Travis Albritton:Yeah, totally. So those are definitely the strengths and the weaknesses. And if you as a leader, were not listening to that, and not having like red flags pop up in your mind, you should have, there should be red flags popping up saying, Okay, I understand why this could be a valuable tool for reading and interpreting the Bible. Yeah. But there are a lot of ways that can go wrong. So if you want to see how this hermeneutic gets hijacked, that's how we have what is now been termed progressive Christianity, which has moved beyond the Bible of Scripture, and said, this scripture was really relevant in this time in place, but we have now matured beyond it. And which leads us to some really funky theology, when you start neglecting scripture in favor of what you project the trajectory to be. So this is definitely one that while it is a very valuable tool needs to be handled exceptionally well, with a lot of precision. And, as with all good interpretation, you want to make sure that the conclusions and conclusions you come to whether it's blueprint, theological or trajectory, are consistent with what you know about the rest of the Bible, right? That if you come to a conclusion about something, and then you look at the Bible and say, well, that's not here at all, then maybe your conclusion isn't what it should be one last kind of tangible example that I want to dig into Before we discuss how Galatians three would be relevant, or how you would read it through this hermeneutic. And this can help I think, grounds this idea, and is something that's more familiar, is the the teaching in the Bible of the kingdom of God. All right, that this was Jesus's main thing, The kingdom of God is near repent, The kingdom of heaven is near right, depending which gospel you read, it would either say, Kingdom of Heaven or kingdom of God. And the message of the apostles and acts was, the kingdom has arrived, it is here it is breaking in. If you want to go and do a deep dive on this topic, there's a great series of books that you can pick up on ipi, which is the ICSC bookstore, on the kingdom of God, by Tom Jones and Steve Brown, who are two teachers inside of our movement. And that really opens your eyes to Okay, The kingdom of God is not just in heaven, like in some ethereal place. But it's also here, it's also present. It means that as disciples, to be a light to the world around us means to model what it will look like living in heaven. After Judgement Day, like when we are actually in communion with God and with each other. That is what we're trying to do here. That's what it means to bring the kingdom of God to earth. And so but but we're not quite very yet, right? We still live in this fallen world where there is sin, there is pain, there is hurt. And so it's arrived. But it's not fully here yet. And so a trajectory hermeneutic is consistent with the kingdom of God, because kingdom of God is pointing you towards that end target. Yeah. Right, which is, one day when we get to have fellowship with God uninterrupted, then what is that going to look like? And how do we model that here? Right, you're using a trajectory hermeneutic, to pull those answers from the future and make them practical and relevant in the presence, you know, to ask what does it look like as a faith community to live as we would if the new heaven and new earth were already fully present? So hopefully, if you're familiar with the kingdom of God, if you're familiar with that theme in the Bible, that can kind of make this really far out topic hermeneutic interpretation tool, feel a little more grounded, and see why it's really useful for us trying to figure out what things do we adopt from the New Testament churches? And what things do we mature beyond through the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in our understanding of God's will? This is a really useful tool for doing that. And I said one last thing. But one last thing. When Corina, you asked the question of is restoring the first century church is that really the best goal for us? Is that really the target we should be aiming for? And I think it's important for us to stop and consider that we are to actually doing that. Even if we say that we're doing that, because I don't know about you, but I don't want to model the church in Corinth. That was a hot mess of a situation and we're gonna dig into some of coming up in a couple episodes, I don't want to model the church in Galicia, which this passage is being pulled out from that region, like these churches had issues. That's why these letters are being written to correct these issues. Yeah. Right. And so when we're talking about restoring the first century church, we're actually not just applying a blueprint hermeneutic of what were the correctives that were given to say, okay, that's what they should have been doing. For we're actually taking a perfected, idealized version of that first century church, and we're trying to implement that. Yeah. Which is trajectory. hermeneutic. Yeah, we're looking at the Bible to inform what should have been, and what God wants, and pulling that into our presidents. So even though these can feel like very different tools, that give you very different answers, they all play together. And it's when you pull all of these different perspectives, and all these different vantage points together, yep, that you actually get a holistic view of the Bible, and can then walk away with answers to questions like, what is the role of women in the church? Yeah, from a place that is resilience that allows you to, to understand both the strengths and the weaknesses of the different arguments and different stances that people take. And they have the humility to understand our own shortcomings in our understanding of the Bible. So before we jump into how would a trajectory hermeneutic, interpret Galatians three, let's actually backtrack a little bit and go through all three of these. And then we'll end with trajectory hermeneutics. So Corina, watch, you cue that up for us? What's the context of this passage? Who is being written to and then let's walk through how each of these hermeneutics would be applied? If you were answering our question, what is the role of women in the church? But then just the broader question of how does the scripture apply to me?
Corina Espejo:Yeah, well, I'm not gonna lie. I'm using my home in rainbow Study Bible that gives me these answers directly at the beginning. So I'm going to rely on that. Let's talk a little bit about the context. So the Apostle Paul, he was writing to the church in Galicia. And really, when we look at the church of glacia, most people believe that there were a lot of Jews there, and there were Gentiles. There were non Jews there. But it creates this friction, as we know, characteristic of the first century church. So some of what we read in Galatians, is really about addressing some of that friction, and addressing maybe the law of Moses, and salvation and what that means for us, but landing on common themes throughout Galatians, which is that salvation is a gift. It's a gift given in grace, and it is dependent on faith in Christ Jesus. And that's an exciting I love that topic. I think it's a great overarching principle. And when we look at Galatians, three, and where it sits in that, it kind of it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense, why that passage Galatians three talks about all these different types of people in why they are all children of God, in the context that we're reading it in.
Travis Albritton:So then how would someone reading this from a blueprint? hermeneutic? Decide what does this mean for me? What does this mean for us as a church? What are the church practices that we could develop or create that would allow us to live out what we read in Galatians 326 through 29,
Corina Espejo:when I look at this scripture, and I'm putting on that blueprint, hermeneutic mind, I'm using that as my tool, I think the practicals that I take away of like, Okay, what do I do? What are the practices? The first thing that my mind went to was through faith that first verse 26, so in Christ Jesus, you are all children of God, through faith, My mind went to Okay, what do I do, I need to make sure my faith is on straight, I need to increase my faith. I'm seeing some practicals here of if this is a big part of our identity, then then this is a next step for me. The next step to let's say, I wasn't baptized, but verse 27, it's clear for all of you who are baptized into Christ, have closed yourselves with Christ. My next question is Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, am I baptized? Am I close in Christ? That would be my next question of like, Where am I at? Am I doing what's right? Am I where I need to be? And then the next question, or the next thing that stood out to me is in verse 29, it says, If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise, according to the promise, my first thought was, okay, what is the promise? And where do I stand on that? Do I need to do anything to make sure that I belong in Christ to make sure that I'm there, and in Galatians, as a whole, not just looking at Galatians, three, there are going to be some things that come into play like the Holy Spirit, like the law, and how that relates to me, it's going to you know, it's funny, actually, the chapter right after that talks about legalism in the church, but I'm going to be looking at some of these things. If I you know, and we live in a Western church, so I would probably gloss right over circumcision, but that's clearly not going to apply to me. I there's nothing I can do with that. But these are some of the things if I'm looking at this. I don't know if it's great. Lupron her hermeneutics are not, but that's what I would look for. I would like comb through this book and look for those types of things. That's pretty spot on Corina, awesome, you
Travis Albritton:did a good job. Cool, a couple little tidbits that I'll add. And these are just bonus, you don't pay extra for these is Galatians is one of the earliest writings in the New Testament chronologically. And so we know from the book of Acts to the very beginning, the church was predominantly Jewish. For the first 10 years or so it was a Jewish movements, or a movement within Judaism would be the better way to say it. And then only after Peter has his vision, they have this council in Jerusalem, they have Paul come down to Jerusalem to talk about what's going on in Antioch and in other areas of the world at a time. And then that's when they say, okay, the Gospels for Gentiles as well. But that doesn't mean that just because the council in Jerusalem said so that all problems between Jews and Gentiles have been erased. Yeah, and that we're just singing Kumbaya around a campfire anymore. One of the predominant false teachings that continued even after that point was that if you were to be a Christian, a true Christian, a true believer, you had to become a Jew first, before you could become a Christian. And that group is called the judaizers. Makes sense, right? And so, Bible scholars believe there was this false teaching going around in this region in Galatians. And so this little snippet of scripture in middle of the book of Galatians is like hitting the nail right on the head and saying, you've got it wrong, guys. This isn't just a Jewish faith. This is for everyone. Yeah, doesn't matter if you're Jew or Gentile, slave free, male, female. You are all Abraham's seed. And so that blueprint of this is how the early church thought about the gospel, that it wasn't strictly limited to the Jewish people. Yeah, but it was a gospel. For everyone who is a you on galley on a good news for everyone. Yeah. And so our church practice should reflect that, that when we are sharing our faith when we're reaching the last in our communities, that we are doing that that we are diverse in the people that we're pursuing, because there was no one that would be excluded from that message or that opportunity. Yeah. So that's how you would read Galatians three from a blooper hermeneutic. And again, recognize the question of how does this inform the role of women serving on Sundays from a blueprint hermeneutic is it does not enter this would not be a part of the Scriptures you would look to, to answer this question. Yeah.
Corina Espejo:All right. Am I trying on theological hermeneutics
Travis Albritton:try on your theological hermeneutic at Corina
Corina Espejo:cool, all right, if I'm putting on and I am going to pick up my theological hermeneutic and looking at Galatians three, verses 2629. Honestly, the the biggest thing that would stand out to me is that last verse 29, about if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, I think, the theological hermeneutic. And we would be like, here we go, Old Testament, Abraham's seed, we're talking about the promises. And we're, we're talking about this big narrative and looking at Galatians as a whole, I would be drawn to the gospel of the Messiah, right? There's an excitement there, I would be drawn to even just moving forward when chapter five talks about freedom in Christ, it talks about, oh, even even chapter four covenants, right? The covenants of Abraham's two sons, these are the things I'm going to be drawn to and building that big picture understanding. You know, it's funny, I'm like, I get stuck there, because my blueprint hermeneutic mind goes, Okay, now what, but that's it, right? But the theological hermeneutic goes, yay, we've arrived, right? Like, there's fulfillment of the prophecies. And, and I almost want to go and you know, that's it. That's, that's the period.
Travis Albritton:Right? So, just purely from a theological hermeneutic you're trying to discern what is the heart of God? That would be it right? That this just reinforces the gospel message, God's design, his intent from the beginning, for a nation of priests in Israel to be a light to bring other nations to him, the fulfillment, the culmination of that with Jesus, and how now that door has been opened to all the nations, and that we see this. We see God's heart in that, right we see God's desire for communion and relationship with everyone. And that even though we still live in a world that has discrepancy, it has struggle has sin, it has pain, it has hurt, where people take advantage of each other. Yeah, that is not what God wants. In his church. That is not his desire. That is not his heart, for us to be oppressing each other. And so when we think about church practice, or how as disciples, we're going to live that out. We want a model that grace first mindset Right, we want to model that, that heart of God. And, you know, ask the question, What would Jesus do? Right? What would God do? If he were here in my seat in this situation? interacting with this person? Yeah. And what are the principles that I take from scriptures like Galatians three, that helped him form my view of who God is and what matters to him. And so as I go through my life, I use wisdom to apply that to my unique circumstances of being a person living in my body with my job and my viewpoints and my experience.
Corina Espejo:Yeah, that's great. All right. trajectory hermeneutic
Travis Albritton:trajectory hermeneutic the fun one,
Corina Espejo:the fun one, the
Travis Albritton:one where if we get it wrong, it has disastrous results, but when we get it right, it is. Beautiful,
Corina Espejo:beautiful thing. No pressure, here we go. Galatians three, I'm looking at this with trajectory hermeneutic this is this is definitely the most difficult for me if you belong to Christ than you are okay, so if I'm looking at this, contextually even just just timeline let's just take timeline simplest. For me. Abraham's seed would be the first year I don't see too much talking about okay are telling me or pulling out like any Genesis concepts creation, but it does kind of start with Abraham seat, okay, Abraham, then we move forward to Christ Jesus, and then to now for all of us now who are baptized in Christ, I guess I'd be drawn to there is neither Jew nor Gentile near neither slave nor free. I think when I think about trajectory hermeneutic My mind is going to God's promise to Abraham and how it was his covenant with Abraham was everybody, it always ended with everybody, through your family, it's going to impact the world, right? And here, we are beginning to look at that and see that. So I would, if I'm picking up the trajectory hermeneutic Can you can you hear how effortful This is for me, okay. I would think, how do I bring in all of these people? I think I'd be careful not to exclude anybody, but I'd say okay, how do I, since the trajectory is everybody? How do I make sure I am ensuring that everybody is in Christ Jesus, that we have this fullness of the world, to help them become children of God through faith to help them get to that point of clothing themselves in Christ? I think I'd also be careful not to create any barriers, like the Scripture, if I'm thinking about trajectory, because that's the design I'm looking at from beginning to end. The design was God didn't want anybody to perish. Am I? How am I this is like, super hard for me. So I don't even know if this is right. You are certainly inside the ballpark.
Travis Albritton:Okay. All right. So again, this is when we talked about like those red flags, you got to be super careful. Yeah, we're trying to be super precise, even our own words. Because again, there is some inference. Yeah, there's some reading between the lines to see where could God be taking us. And you're relying on the Holy Spirit to give you that wisdom through prayer and fasting. Alright, so this is not a light thing that we're doing. And it should not be done lightly. Another thing that you could read from introductory hermeneutic standpoint, is that as we move forward as God's people, the barriers from certain people groups to being able to do certain things will be torn down. Yeah, that before, if you're free, you have rights and privileges that a slave would not. But as we move forward, those will be broken down. And now they will be seen as equals, right? That there's nothing a slave can do that a master Kant's or a free person can't and vice versa. There's nothing a free person could do that a slave cannot do. Yeah. And that makes sense to us. Right? Especially now that we know Yeah, slavery is bad. We shouldn't have like, that's not what God wants. Same thing with Jews and Gentiles. Right? Most of us listening to this podcast, if not all of us are Gentiles. Yeah. Right. And so the idea that this idea is very welcome that Yeah, like, it's not like Jews get to do X. And Gentiles don't get to do all those things. Yeah. Now here is where it could become relevance. For our question, that word could is very important. You could read this from a trajectory mindset and say, Okay, well, then, if we see that there is no more man or woman, male or female, in this future version of the kingdom of God, they were trying to live in the present, then what that could mean is that the restrictions that we place around what men and women can and cannot do in the future, may not be there in the way that they were in the first century church. Now, we have to be careful about that. Because if we're good students of the Bible, and we suppose that Galatians was written very early on in Paul's ministry, then it's it's not Like he's doing away with other things that he has written and saying, This is my new updated idea. Right? So we still have to contend with the rest of the New Testament and be responsible students of the Bible. This also does not mean that there is no longer a difference between men and women, that we're all just kind of a sexual beings with no differences, no distinctions. That is where a lot of the worldly influences going, Yeah, right, a lot of this postmodern, modern feminist idea, gender spectrum, all of those are theories that have taken place in university that are now bringing brought into especially Western society, right, that gender is lived on a spectrum and all those kinds of things. And so this scripture is not saying that like, man, woman doesn't matter, you be whoever you want to be. Because at the end of the day, it's not even a thing. So that is certainly a conclusion. You can't pull from this, or we should not pull from this. And I think the other thing to say is, even if it's, we can take this scripture and from a trajectory hermeneutic say, perhaps this is what God is leading us towards. It would be irresponsible to pin that theology on this one scripture. Yeah. And to say, See, there's no longer a difference between man and woman. So all systems go. Every Office of ministry can be held by men or women, there's no role in ministry that men can do that women can't do anymore, because we are now living in this future kingdom of God. That is a conclusion. A lot of people have come to with regard to this question. Yeah, that is not something that you can pin exclusively on Galatians. Three, you have to do a lot more work a lot more. A lot more work to get there. Yeah. So that is how you would read Galatians, three, from a trajectory hermeneutic mindset.
Corina Espejo:Got it. I'm ready for takeaways. This is great. This is really fun. This is challenging for me,
Travis Albritton:when I think the thing that's so freeing about understanding this, and hopefully, because again, this there's a lot of mental and emotional gymnastics that go into deconstructing the way you read and interpret the Bible. Yeah. But I hope that the take one of the takeaways, and one of the things that you're feeling listening to this episode, is once you have clarity around the way you naturally interpret the Bible, yeah, that also clues you into areas you need to be aware of blind spots, right? That if you typically read the Bible thinking, what is the answer for what the early church did? And how do we do that? There are some strengths to that. And there's some weaknesses to that. And so if you understand that there are weaknesses, and you recognize those weakened weaknesses, you can kind of put them at bay a little bit and say, Okay, I am going to pursue this view of Christianity, and look for this pattern in the New Testament. But I'm not going to do it from a judgmental stance, I'm going to do it full of grace, and full of patience and mercy. As we all try and figure out what that pattern could be right and so, so hopefully, by just getting clarity around these different methods for interpreting scripture, can help you be more aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the way that you typically like to interpret scripture. And we all typically have a preferred method that we are drawn to, but then also seeing that each of these are a totally valid way of trying to interpret the Bible, right, that they each come with different questions, which lead you to potentially different answers, but really, it's not different answers, like someone's gonna get a and another person is gonna get b, but it's like, a plus a minus, like, you're looking at this from a different angle than somebody else. Yeah. Right. And that's going to give you different impressions and different takeaways.
Corina Espejo:And I think to maybe, this is where my mind went, if I am building a car to drive, I'm not going to use the same tools on the engine that I would on the tire and some may overlap, some may not. But we have to do it skillfully. Because it's a car like it's, we have to be skilled in how we take care of it. And so that when we drive it, it runs well. And I think some of these tools might be applicable depending on what part of the car and but ultimately, when you go to drive it, there's confidence because you knew you, you you worked on it with the right tools in the right places in the right ways. And I know I referenced this already, but Steve canards book getting the most from the Bible. I like this. I like this concept. And I'm sure he's not the first person to state this, but and he probably won't be the last. For those who feel like they're getting stretched because they want just the simple. What does the Bible say? Just do it just redo. And there, maybe there's a temptation to not go through this process of proper interpretation. The title of the section that Steve canard puts in this section is why bother, right? Why bother with hermeneutics? Why bother with interpretation? Why bother? Right? And he references Second Timothy 215 and it says, do your best to present yourself to God as one approved a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of Truth. And the first conclusion he draws is that there is a correct and an incorrect way to handle the word of truth. In our trailer, that was one of the biggest sentiments of the individuals we were trying to draw feedback from. When approaching the question, what does the Bible say about women in the church? Right? Their biggest concern was, how do I correctly handle the word of truth, I don't want to be unskilled. And so if you're on this podcast, we hope you feel a little bit more skilled and competent to go about this question. I also hope those of you who that was not on your radar that it's a good encouragement to want to correctly handle the word of truth and that that's going to require a little bit more elbow grease, a little bit more skill and knowledge. And I hope you're encouraged by me doing that on this episode that, you know, we're all in it together. A really fun takeaway is to be mindful and self aware of what I am drawn to in terms of this tools. And I don't have to dive so much into the why, although that's kind of fun for me to know. Okay, well, why am I drawn to blueprint? hermeneutic? Or why am I drawn to trajectory? Or why does theological hermeneutic drive me nuts, right, like, it's great to see that because as I go to use these tools, it'll help me be more skilled in the strengths and the weaknesses, and maybe even where I tend to weather, my inclinations. So I can be just a better steward. I think about martial artists, I was thinking about this on the drive to record this podcast with the drivers. We have the short, double edged sword, right. And it had a very specific purpose that drives how it's created. The Roman soldier was using that short, double edged sword in combat, and it had one function one purpose, when basic move in and out, get to the heart. That's it. Close Combat was the context. And there's going to be time for that. I mean, you're trying to win a war and it's life or death, you're going to want your short, double edged sword, right? You're going to want that short sword. But then I think about back in the day, right, and we think about Japan, and you have these beautiful, elegant, long, but single sided swords. And they tend to lend very well towards beauty and exhibitionist. And you think about that culture and what that was meant to communicate about life, life and death, not just being life and death. But even that swords can play a bigger part than just kill or be killed, but to protect, and to even show life lessons about life and discipline, and how to be artful and, and so I think about all these things. And I think my takeaway is embrace all of these things for what they are, and not what I'm forcing them to be. Just, it's a caution to the wise, be mindful of who you are, and which of these you might be drawn to. And which of these might, might turn you off. Another takeaway I had is, as we talk about women in the church, just looking at Galatians, three, and as I went through this exercise, I think, for me, what Galatians 326 to 29, what it's telling me and for me, it's more of like, as me Kareena, a woman in the church, what I'm taking away is there's a place for me that I do have a place as a woman, and you know, even outside of being a woman, as you know, a brown woman, as a young woman, as no matter what part of my identity, the big picture is that I do have a place as a child of God. And I can have a sort of security because I was baptized in faith through faith in Christ Jesus, that I have him as my main identity when I'm clothing Christ. That's who I'm pursuing. I want people to see that. And that's what people can see. I belong, right. This is if you belong to Christ I belong. So it's like, I don't know if that's stretching. But that's my takeaway.
Travis Albritton:Yeah. The takeaways that I had from this episode, were just acknowledging that there's more than one approach to interpreting scripture. And that it's important to recognize each of them for what they are and what they bring to the table. Because when you can learn how to use each one skillfully, as you were so eloquently putting that that deepens our understanding of the Bible, and helps us get closer to actionable takeaways. doxology things that we can do in our Christian life, that are also moldable to our situation. So one of the things I love about the Bible is because it has those cultural underpinnings, it means that we can now take the lessons and the wisdom and God's instructions in the Bible and apply them in any culture in any place in time. And it still fits. Yeah, what we do the practices of the church and the Christians will look different. And we're gonna get into some of that towards the end of this podcast when we talk about church practice, from the things that we learn from the Bible, but that's actually really exciting. Because that means that even if tomorrow, something really crazy happens, like there's a global pandemic, that'll probably never happen. But if it did, and, you know, hypothetically, we're all just doing church online streaming from our homes, something that will probably never come true.
Corina Espejo:It's too soon, Travis.
Travis Albritton:Right that I can still go and make disciples of all nations, I can still love my neighbor as myself. I can still practice one another relationships with the brothers and sisters in my small group. Yeah, the way I do, it may be different. It might be on FaceTime or on a zoom call, instead of going to their house or going to church on a Sunday. But I still get to put those things into practice. Because I understand that like, this Christianity that I'm living is very pliable, and very resilient. And no matter what happens, yeah, the Bible has the answers to give us the wisdom to know what to do in those situations. So that's the beauty of understanding all these different hermeneutics.
Corina Espejo:Yeah, I one more takeaway. I know, they're just keep on coming. And I love what you said, I wonder too, in thinking in that way, it also creates grace and mercy and patience with people who might be different from me, because now, after we're going through these things, I can see Oh, that's why you always reach for whatever trajectory hermeneutic Oh, that's why. And to be able to approach Scripture with somebody who might be different for me and find a bit of a common ground to find understanding and compassion behind that. Okay, now I understand, and to help us all maneuver together. And yeah, that that just was the thought that came
Travis Albritton:right, instead of talking past each other, not understanding why we can't figure out why the other person is so unspiritual exactly the way they read the Bible. Right? just recognizing, oh, you're just approaching it with some different questions. Yeah, than I am. But let's, let's actually do this collaboratively in a dialogue and in a conversation and come to some greater understanding together. Yeah. Which brings me to the second takeaway I had, which was, the questions we bring to our Bible study will impact the answers that we find are the flavor of the answers that we find. And so just recognize if you're approaching the question of what is the role of women in church on Sundays, from blueprint hermeneutic, you're looking to find a pattern in Acts and the epistles? Yeah, that has strengths and weaknesses, right? We should not do that exclusively, because that rejects even the ministry of Jesus, which is that that should always be a red flag, right? If we're saying Jesus's ministry is not relevant to answer your question about how we follow him as a group, that that should be a little bit of a flag, at the very least, yeah. And so just understand that the way you approach reading the Bible, and the questions you ask, will impact the kind of answers and takeaways that you have. And so if you're interacting with somebody, and they had different takeaways from their Bible study, it's possible that you were just asking different questions, or asking them in different ways. And so we're gonna do our best to kind of cover all the angles for this question on this podcast, because I understand that that's probably what's actually happening. And then the last takeaway, and this is, again, just a word of caution, just be mindful of the weaknesses of your preferred hermeneutic. That if you recognize, okay, I really like to live in theological land. Let me make sure I'm actually practicing discipleship to Right, right. So I'm not just saying, Man, God is awesome. He's so full of grace, right? You know, he's forgiven me, a sinner. This is phenomenal. And then not do anything with that, right? Or if you are more drawn to trajectory, and you're thinking, Man, I just want to, you know, as much as possible, model the life that I will get to live in heaven while I'm on earth and share that with others. As a light. Just be really careful that in that pursuit of that knowledge and understanding that you don't kind of get too far over your skis and draw conclusions that aren't there. Yeah. And art actually meant to be drawn, right. So just be aware of those weaknesses. So when you do come to conclusions, and decide, okay, this is how I'm going to put these scriptures into practice from this framework. Just be mindful of those weaknesses. So you can kind of hedge your bets a little bit and make sure that you're not going too far, outside of Christian orthodoxy with your conclusions. It's great.
Corina Espejo:I'm
Travis Albritton:excited. Awesome. And the reason we spent so much time talking about hermeneutics, is because over the next four episodes or so we're going to be using all of these tools. We're going to be looking at blueprint, theological and trajectory hermeneutics and and looking at passages in the New Testament, specifically Romans, First Corinthians and First Timothy, that can help inform our understanding of what the early church practiced when it came to women in ministry, and what we should do as it pertains to us now, if you want to get updates on new episodes that come out, you want to get access to our resource guide, which has all of our study resources and things you can go into your own study. If you want the companion worksheets, where you can do your own quiet time series or get together with your leadership group and go through these questions and these topics that's available at women church, podcast comm you can sign up, it's 100% free, and you get access to all those resources. But next week, we have the saint herself. Jeannie Shah jumping in to help kickstart the rest of our podcast. digging into the question, What role do women have in the ministry in the modern day church