#1. Taking the Bible Scholar Approach

In this episode, we'll dig into the foundational concepts and Bible study tools needed to conduct a thorough investigation of what the Bible has to say about women serving in Church.

Here's a link to check out the Nicene Creed, which establishes what falls into the "salvation issues" bucket.

Big concepts we touch on in this episode:

• Major Biblical themes like atonement and redemption of creation
• The 3 buckets of doctrine
• Labels and positions that are often used (and why we won't be using them)
• The difference between "exegesis" and "eisegesis"
• What does it mean for something to be true?
• Making sure that our answer to the question of women in the church includes ALL women

Sign up to receive Bible study guides, handouts, and resources that complement what you learn in this podcast by going to WomenChurchPodcast.com

Transcript

Travis Albritton: 0:01

Welcome to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look at what the Bible teaches about women in church, for the ICRC I am Travis Albritton. And joining me as always, is Corina dispay. Hello, hello. So Corina, what are we going to talk about today in episode number one?

Corina Espejo: 0:19

Ah, so we preface this and trailer one, the foundations for moving forward as we approach the question of what does the Bible say about women in church, and we're going to be talking about a lot of the tools, we'll be revisiting a lot of these concepts as we unpack scriptures, and passages. So it's really just the building blocks and tools to come back to,

Travis Albritton: 0:39

right, we don't want to come into this conversation, assuming that we're all in the same place, right? So we want to make sure that we're very thorough and consistent and identifying the tools that we're going to be using as we study out these passages. And then it's also the context that we're having this conversation around that this is a conversation that is already happening in a lot of places, not only within our family of churches, but in other denominations, as well. So we just want to make sure that we're all on the same page about how we're answering this question. And making sure that we're doing it as correctly as we possibly can as wisely as we possibly can. And one of the big things that we want to stress here at the beginning, is that we don't want to miss the forest for the trees. It's very easy when you get laser focused on one question in particular, and you're looking at a handful of passages to give you you know, what you determined to be the answer or what God's answer is to that question to to kind of miss the broader context of the story of the Bible. And so Corina, what's the major biblical theme that that we want to be mindful of? When it comes to answering this question about women and their roles in ministry in the church?

Corina Espejo: 1:52

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. The story is about redemption for us as God's creation. And when you look at the Bible, from the old testament to the New Testament, it's going to flow to and from Jesus. So when you look at the creation, the fall, the new creation that talks about in Revelation, all of it is is talking about how God wants to redeem and return us His creation to its original intent in the garden. And the big part of that is Jesus, it's gonna come back to Jesus.

Travis Albritton: 2:21

Right? And so when we're laser focused on this question, which if you listen to this podcast, you're probably wondering like, can a woman preach on a Sunday? Like, that's the question that you have. The question that we want to have for the Bible is what does the Bible say about God's desire, his plan has designed his intent for women and men, and how that actually plays out in the way that we do church today. But making sure that we connect that answer, to make it consistent with these broader themes that we see in the Bible, Redemption of creation being really the big one, that that's the common theme. If you look at, you know, the Bible as a story of God, as it relates to us. Our part of the story is, how do we respond, when he reaches out and says, I want to redeem this relationship, I want to eradicate the separation that sin has created. And I want to walk and live with you the way that I wanted to back when we first started this whole thing in the beginning of Genesis. Yeah. So that's the big major theme, we're going to keep connecting this question to, to make sure that whatever conclusions that we come to, that those are consistent with the Bible as a whole, and that we're not somewhere off in left field, getting super granular and laser focused. And like, Jesus is critiqued to the Pharisees right there. They're contributing or offering a 10th of every single one of the herbs they've grown in their little window herb garden, but they've neglected mercy and grace and love. That is not something we want to be said, of us.

Corina Espejo: 3:52

And along those lines, I mean, we if we're thinking about the redemption story, when we think about doctrine, we're going to really have to parcel out, okay, how are we? How are we defining doctrine? How are we looking at it and approaching the Bible and these passages? Do you want to talk about those those three buckets of doctrine?

Travis Albritton: 4:08

Yes, let's talk about the three buckets of doctrine. So if you're listening to this, and then you're in the Nash International Church of Christ, you're probably familiar with First Timothy 416, right? Watch your life and doctrine closely. And we typically teach that as you know, you need to not only live the way that God wants you to live, but you need to have the correct set of biblical beliefs of what it means to be a disciple and what it means to follow Jesus. And that's phenomenal. And that's great. And that's something I think, really sets our fellowship apart. But what we often miss in that discussion is that there are different kinds of doctrine. And some of them are more important than others. And as we go through some of these examples, you'll see kind of what we're talking about. And the reason we want to talk about this first before we jump into the rest of our study, is so we can properly identify where this question needs to fit. Like this question of what role should women play in our Church? Where does that fit in the grand scheme of the variety of doctrines that we can have? How important is it? how essential is it? Is it something that, you know, we really do have to be of one mind and completely unified about not only our understanding but our application of that question? Or is it something that we have a little bit more flexibility with? So really, really important to understand the context of how we should be thinking about the answer to this question. And the first bucket of doctrine. This is our line in the sand doctrine, our salvation issues, right things that if you don't hold to this, you cannot be a Christian, not just from our perspective, but biblically, you cannot be a Christian. So what would be some examples of salvation issues? doctrine that is not up for debate, not up for discussion, we all have to be in agreement about this. Yeah,

Corina Espejo: 5:52

I mean, the first thing I think about is the sovereignty, the authority of the word, make sure that we're coming back to the Bible as an authority. Another one is going to be the role of baptism and belief, believing in Jesus and even just making that decision with the pledge of a good conscience that talks about that it's not just, I'm going to do this because my mom told me so right. But if it's founded on lordship, and that's another huge elevational concept is Jesus is Lord and Savior. That's a huge part of the gospel. And so

Travis Albritton: 6:21

this, this bucket salvation issues, is what the Bible refers to when it talks about Beware of false doctrine or false teachers, that if you know anything about the new church, in the New Testament, there were a lot of splinter movements coming out of the early church, that were threatening the core doctrines of the church. So Gnosticism was one which basically said that Jesus didn't actually come in the flesh. And you know that the physical is evil, the spiritual is, is all that matters, and was really leading people astray. Another strain of the Christian church that threatens, you know, really the foundation of the church early on was the Judy Iser movement, which said that you have to become a Jew first, before you can become a Christian. And so if you're a male, and you're not circumcised, you can't actually receive salvation. That was a doctrine that threatened to the church. So those are the kinds of things that fit in this bucket of lines in the sand, that in order for us to be in fellowship with one another, in order for us to call each other brother and sister, these are the things that we must agree on. Hey, Travis, from the future here. So after we released this episode, originally, we got a lot of questions and a lot of feedback around this first bucket, the salvation issues, disciples wanting to know, hey, what really is in this buckets? How big is the bucket? And where do we find the teachings and the things that will come into this bucket like who decides what that is? So I just wanted to make this quick little addition, to give you some really tangible examples. And lucky for you, these are not things that me or Corina made up. These are things that are agreed upon by centuries of Christian biblical scholarship. So the first example that I want to point you to is Ephesians, chapter four, and in Ephesians, chapter four, this is what Paul says, starting at verse four, there is one body, and one spirit, just as you were called to one hope, when you were called, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, whose overall and through all and in all. And so within these four verses, we see Paul layout, not just core elements and tenants of the Christian faith, right, we see God the Father, we see the spirits, we see Jesus Lord, one faith, one baptism, these things that we have come to incorporate into our core doctrine as a family of churches. But these were also things that would be used to counteract some of that false teaching that we just talked about the Gnostics and the judaizers, that Paul would have been combating against in the early church. And so this is a really great place to start. But then to continue to build on that I want to point you to something that happened in Christian history, because a few 100 years after the Christian movement had started, and was spreading throughout the Roman Empire, the church leaders of the early Christian church, gathered in nicea, to hammer out and agree on the core tenants of the Christian faith, the things that they would not budge on the things that defined Christians, as opposed to any other faith movement. And this Nicene Creed really does a great job. I think of taking that Ephesians four principle and expanding it to really paint a picture of what does it mean to be a Christian? What are the core beliefs that make Christians different than any other religion? Okay, so here's the Nicene Creed and I'll leave a link to this in the show notes so you can go and check it out and read it for yourself. But here it is in itself. hierdie we believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only son of God, be gotten from Father before all ages, God from God, light from light, True God from true God, be gotten not made of the same essence, as the Father. Through Him, all things were made for us and for our salvation. He came down from heaven, he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered and was buried. The third day, he rose again, according to the Scriptures, he ascended to heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, his kingdom will never end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, he proceeds from the Father and the Son in with the Father and the Son is worshipped, and glorified. He spoke through the prophets, we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church, we affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, we look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen. And so you can hear those Ephesians, four principles being dripped through here, right? And is very clear. This is what it means to believe in God to follow Jesus, to embrace Jesus's identity in all of its entirety, and helps describe the inner workings of the Trinity, how they relate to us, how we relate to them, and what all that looks like as a faith community. So hopefully, that gave you some more insight into what needs to go into that salvation issues bucket the things that we cannot budge on. And now let's move on to the second bucket. Beneath that bucket are what we would call sound practices, or, or sound doctrine would be another term that is used often. So what would be some examples of sound practices that aren't necessarily salvation issues, but are really important to study out and to, to pay attention to?

Corina Espejo: 12:20

Yeah, one of the big ones, I think, is the application of spiritual gifts, especially as it pertains to public worship, what that should look like, even how you should test some of these gifts. Another one is like requirement for elders or what's expected of elders and deacons and individuals who serve the church. And then of course, women's roles in the public assembly is these are some of those things,

Travis Albritton: 12:43

right? So so these are important things. Yeah, like for something to be a sound practice means that it's very important that we study diligently to make sure that we get it right. But when there is a difference of perspective, or a difference of conviction, or understanding, that is still within the umbrella of Yeah, but we're still aligned on the salvation issues. There actually is room here for different applications. And there actually is room here for different understandings. This is really where a lot of the tension happens. These kind of conversations, because it's easy to kind of elevate these discussions into that salvation issue. bucket of doctrine. Yeah, right. But it's really important to recognize that okay, if it's not a salvation issue, that you can actually believe something slightly different than me, like that Kareena, and I can have a difference of perspective and conviction and an opinion, that does not mean that we can't serve alongside one another in the same church and in the same ministry. But that also doesn't mean it's not important that we study these things out, too.

Corina Espejo: 13:47

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think it's okay for these things that even when we get into this third bucket of matters of opinion, it's okay for it to be important to you. Without it, diminishing and being counterproductive to the gospel at large. And seeking and saving the last right seeking and saving those who need Jesus, it's okay to differ with others, as you partner to say, take care of the orphans and widows, or even just again, coming back to sharing about Jesus and finding that partnership and pride even in those who claim Christ. So matters of opinion that third bucket even, for example, my favorite choice of worship, music style. You know, I grew up on the hymns. I love those hymns. People, I think, who look at me, and they're like, no, you're joking, and I think I'm being sarcastic. I'm like, I genuinely love, especially like our songbook, hymns. Like I can remember brothers and sisters in the church I grew up with taking time to teach me all the different parts and then hearing them come together and the work that went into the I love that other people, they're really like gospel, and that is great. You can have that preference. And it's still not take away from the salvation like we don't have to split as a congregation and say well I can't I can't serve next to you or I can't be next to you because of things like that or the function of small groups. What should they? How should they operate within the gospel? Some people say for those interpersonal others say that's the more the main teaching should come from right? It's going to vary. My favorite should people wear formal wear during service, like a suit and tie when preaching that is one of my favorite preferential matters of opinion. But it's, you know, people can have those opinions, and we still be brother and sister in Christ.

Travis Albritton: 15:32

Right? And, and I think this is this is the bucket, that's kind of the easiest to identify where it's like, Okay, are you singing contemporary worship, hymns and spiritual songs? Or are you speaking in a different language when you're singing, ultimately, that's going to vary from church to church and body to body and culture to culture. And we recognize that there's nothing inherently wrong with doing things differently, right from from place to pace. Same thing with, you know, what you wear when you go to give a lesson, right? And so if you recognize as a leader, you know what, I'm going to remove a lot of mental obstacles by wearing a tie, like there are going to be people in church that will be distracted, and it will be difficult for them to listen to a word I say, if I'm wearing a baseball cap on Sunday preaching from the pulpit, I will not do that. Right. And so you are basically saying, okay, like these things are up for interpretation. There's no right or wrong way to do that. The important thing is the heart behind it, right? That we want to worship God, we want to train and equip, we want to invest in one another relationships. But how you do it is a matter of opinion. Yeah. And so hopefully, seeing these different buckets of doctrine can give us clarity, whenever we have these kind of questions and conversations, that the first thought that comes into our mind should be, okay, well, where does this fits in these three buckets? And so for the question of what role should women play? Does the Bible say that women should play in our church assemblies, that would fall under sound practices more than likely, that it's very important to study out, it's very important to have a deep, biblical understanding of what the Bible says, but also recognize that there is some room for differences in application of what that looks like, from church to church and ministry to ministry. And that's not a that's not a deal breaker. That doesn't mean that we can't be in fellowship with one another, or that we can't serve alongside one another. And if you didn't know that already, I hate to break it to you. There are already a variety of opinions within your own church about this question. And yet somehow, we're still coming together on Sundays and worshiping together. So it is totally possible for that to be the case. And so that is the bucket that this conversation falls into. It is not a threat to our salvation is not a threat to our faith. But it is simply us trying to gain a deeper understanding of what God wants us to do, and how he wants us to function as a church and as the bride of Christ, so that we can glorify and honor him.

Corina Espejo: 17:54

Yeah. And I love the way you said that, I think a great way for you to take a step back and ask, okay, am I maybe approaching this in a way that might be unhealthy to the unification? Not the agreement, but the unification of the church on Christ? Are you? Or do you feel like somebody's salvation is threatened? Are you questioning somebody's salvation? Because of a sound practice, or a matter of opinion that is different than yours? That's a great way to kind of take a step back and say, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Am I judging this person standing before God based on something that's not elevational? That's a good, that's a good mind check.

Travis Albritton: 18:31

For sure. Now, now that we've kind of covered the three buckets of doctrine, let's talk about some terms that you may have heard in the cultural conversation in the church conversation around this question that we will actually never use again, once we say them here in episode one. So Corina, why don't you go ahead and queue those up? And then we'll talk about why we're not going to use them.

Corina Espejo: 18:53

Yeah, I don't, I don't like to use them. Some of these terms like egalitarian, right, that both genders are equal, in some sense, right? complementarian. And that's one where they they complement each other with different roles, progressive, and that these are just, you know, these can mean so many different things. And this is part of the reason why we want to avoid labeling them, right. Progressive versus traditional or conservative versus not. Some of these terms to us can mean something. And to somebody else can mean something completely different that there is quite a spectrum even between these labels. I do not like using them, especially when approaching What does the Bible have to say about women's roles? I think it muddies the water in a way that I think it just messes with the identity that we have in Christ. And I would just, I would definitely be wary and I say that for me like I Corina and wary of placing too much emphasis on my self perception and other identities that aren't a part of being a part of Christ. For example, you know, feminist versus not Oh, Or even some of these other concepts that I think people get stuck in and not realizing even within the world, this has a wide spectrum of what that means and what what you think that should apply to our lives. Most people who who do a deep study on this issue, a lot of them who do it humbly, and I'm going to say it that way, those who approach it with an incredible humility, who are unwavering in their identity in Christ, they may shift their position on some of these other concepts, these other labels, which is, I think, kind of special, that's a special thing that God does for us that he says, Hey, whatever these other things are, I want you to to never, ever be confused about who Christ is, and what that means for you. Yeah, that's, I feel very, I feel very strongly about that. Right?

Travis Albritton: 20:47

Well, and these, you know, they can feel convenience. Yeah, it's like, Okay, well, you know, for this conversation, what role should women play in the church assembly, there's two big camps. This is how they identify. So I'll just self identify him, whichever one feels more closely aligned to my beliefs and convictions. But the problem with the discussion that needs to take place between these two camps is once you've created a US them dichotomy, and said, Well, I'm in this camp, and you're over there on the other side, which means you believe all of these things. Assumptions start happening, right? So if you say, Oh, I'm complementarian. Oh, so you believe that women are second class citizens in the church? Well, no, no, no, that's not at all what I well, other complementarians believe that. So why don't you believe that? Or a gala? terian. It's like, okay, I feel like women should be able to use their gifts more fully. Oh, so you think that we should that we should completely eliminate male leadership in the church and break down that institution of oppression? No, no, no, no, that's not at all what I'm saying. And so that's the problem with using these terms, is they have so many underlying meanings. For people that is not constructive. It's not helpful, it doesn't actually help us have a conversation. So we will not use any of these terms moving forward. Because ultimately, they're not actually helpful. And at the end of the day, they're not super relevant for where we're hoping to go that we're not trying to decide which camp is right. Yep. What we're trying to learn is, what is God's heart? What does God tell us through the Bible? What does God say in Scripture? And then what does that mean for us, in our context, today, trying to honor him with the way that we do church, and how we utilize every single member of our church in order to advance the gospel, right? So that's why we will not be using these labels or terms for the rest of the podcast. But now at least you know why we're not going to be using them.

Corina Espejo: 22:43

Hello, and goodbye, hello, and goodbye. This next one, and it's one of my favorites to exegetical versus isogenic. Will. And I feel like a lot of people hear it and some people have never heard it before. I think the important thing, as we approach defining exegetical versus isogenic, will, it has a heart in humility for God's authority? Those who approach the Bible and are constantly asking, What is God giving me trying to pull out from scripture? What is God telling me with this passage? It's exegetical again exegetical, pulling out from what is there, versus Isagenix which confession, I do it, everybody does it, it is so easy to do, to approach the Bible with ice Jesus. Taking what you know what you think you know, what you believe, and forcing the Bible to fit it, it actually happens very easily and very quickly. So just be self aware. Again, have patience for yourself, patience for other people. But just try and be self aware of your own biases and perspectives. And that you will naturally bring your cultural perspective and your worldview to Bible study it just be mindful of it. So that when God says something different from how you were taught, or brought up, that you are approaching it with humility, and you can say, okay, God, you have the authority, not my experiences, not my life, not my and we'll help you tease these things out, we'll bring up common eisah Jesus, approaches to certain passages will try and help you through that. Just to stay properly oriented, and to prepare you and again, not to make you feel judged, have incredible patience, and grace and love. I know we do, especially me for myself, as I approach scripture, it happens. Let's just be mindful of it. Move forward.

Travis Albritton: 24:26

Yep. And those words, exit Jesus is Jesus. hermeneutics is another word we're going to use later on in this podcast. Those are just descriptions of the different approaches that we take to reading the Bible and figuring out how to apply it for ourselves. So exit Jesus, just in a nutshell is trying to discern what was the original intent from the writer to the audience, right. So when Paul writes a letter to Timothy, what is Paul trying to communicate to Timothy and how would Timothy have understood that and then from there, applying it to our situation today? Yeah. I said, Jesus This would be going in the opposite direction, saying, This is how I understand the world to work. This is how I think God should operate. So when I read the Bible, I'm looking for that confirmation. I'm saying, Oh, look, I found the verse that agrees with what I've already decided is true. So now I know that God is smart enough to recognize my own intellects. Right. And, and, and there is nefarious ice Jesus, where you're very intentional about it. But then there's also completely unintended ice Jesus, where you're reading something with your own set of questions, and your own experience and your own way of seeing the world. And if you're not careful, you can read things into the Bible that aren't actually there, which is something that we're going to actually jump right into in the next episode, when we start talking about the book of Genesis, that exit Jesus is so so important for Genesis, because otherwise we can get off on a tangent, talking about things that the book of Genesis has no interest in trying to answer, right? Just to tease the book of Genesis doesn't talk about dinosaurs, you know why? Because it did not matter to the person that was capturing the story of Genesis, or to the people who were sharing it with was not relevant. And so asking that question of the book of Genesis, we're not going to get the answer that we're looking for, because that's not why Genesis is there for us. So that's, that's why understanding these things is really important. And as we go through this podcast, we're going to be focused on exit Jesus, first and foremost, and then looking at the proper hermeneutics from those biblical teachings, and how they apply to us. So just understand that as a tool set, that's the approach that we're gonna be bringing into this Bible study, and hopefully something that you can mimic and imitate for your self. Now, if you want to get even deeper into the world of Bible study, and you know how to use these terms and how to use it effectively. There's some phenomenal books. The first one is called, how to read the Bible for all it's worth. And the second one is how to read the Bible book by book where the authors do a phenomenal job of breaking down those Bible study techniques, and applying them to the Bible as a whole, walking you through different ways of reading the Bible, and different literary styles and genres and things like that, so you know that you're reading it correctly. And we'll leave those links to those resources in our resources list, which you can download at women church podcast.com. So now that we've kind of teased out x, do you this is a Jesus, one of the big things that you always have to do whenever you're studying a book of the Bible, or a passage of the Bible is the context of that particular story or verse, or passage. So Corina, kind of walk us through what does that look like? understanding the context? And why is it really important for us to understand that moving forward as we start digging into some of these more difficult passages to understand?

Corina Espejo: 27:54

Yeah, yeah, this is probably one of my favorite things to do. Because I can find very clear answers on a lot of these things. Versus you start getting into x G's, ice Jesus, and it gets a little bit harder. Purpose of the book of the Bible, what was the situation with which it was written in? That's one of the contexts you can look at, for example, you know, okay, who was the author? Who was it written to? And why? These are some great contexts that you can you can look up and sometimes are clear cut answers. Sometimes there aren't like many authors of Proverbs, or an Solomon, right? And who was it written to all of Israel, or everybody write it, but it's exciting to kind of look at it and see, oh, okay, this was written by these individuals, for these other individuals. The other thing to look at literary style, if it's poetry, you're going to see a lot of symbolism and not necessarily things that should be taken literally, but more figuratively, then you have historical records that this is what happens. And this is an account of something that happened in history, or you'll have law, or even letters, like the epistles of Paul. And so looking at the literary style will kind of help you acknowledge maybe some of the minutiae of why it was written,

Travis Albritton: 29:04

right. And the whole reason that we want to do that, that proper exit Jesus looking at context, is so that we don't miss apply the application, right? That if it's from one person to another person, that we can understand that for what it is, and then properly apply, instead of saying this was written just for me. So I think one of the things, one of our strengths as a movement is we really encourage independent individual Bible study. Yeah, right. That's something that I think is something we do that's phenomenal and should be applauded. What we want to stay away from is resting on what can be called a plain reading of Scripture, read the Bible and do what it says. Right, which is a very simplistic way of, you know, empowering people to read the Bible. Unfortunately, when we do that, and we're not properly equipped to read the Bible in its proper context, we get into trouble with all of that ISO Jesus, we get in trouble with reading our own understanding and interpretation into those passages, especially ones that are difficult to understand. We're trying to make heads and tails of, why did God put this in here, if not just to confuse us and make us wonder if we know anything at all. And so understanding the underlying context of the passages makes sure that we don't misinterpret the passage, right? That's going to ensure that now, here's something that may be a little controversial here, but should also be very freeing, when we kind of explain why it's a good thing is that every scripture in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is what Bible scholars recall, occasional war, situational, meaning there's a reason it was written. And it is cultural in nature. And that's on purpose. Right? So if you acknowledge that there's a writer, writing to an audience, that there are underlying assumptions about each of those parties that, you know, when the Apostle Paul is writing to a church, in Ephesus, or Corinth or Rome, there are cultural underpinnings to that conversation. And that's actually a really good thing. It's actually a really good thing, that we have that cultural nature in the Bible, and that it is situational and occasional, because that allows God to speak to us in ways that we can more easily understand, right that we talk all the time in, in local lingo. And you know, Corina, before we started recording, you're talking about your work with teens and, and all the words that you learn on a monthly basis and how the language is constantly changing. But then that allows you to communicate that much better to the men and women that you're serving, right. And so it's actually really good, that God has used literary style and cultural context, and the occasional and situational nature of these texts, in order to speak to us in a way that we can more easily grasp and understand this higher wisdom that he has that he's trying to impart to us.

Corina Espejo: 31:57

So comforting to me. And when we were talking about this, it immediately reminded me of that Hebrews 412 scripture, and I think I mentioned it in the trailer, right? That the Word of God, it's like a double edged sword, but it's living an active. I love that, because it's true, it can fly and be effective to a time period when there were yoke and oxen. And then nowadays, we can look at that and say, Okay, what does that mean? What does that look like and have today's implications for that, and what that means it looks like, but if we read it, and we say, Oh, well, now I need to be yoked and what you know, and then there's confusion there of what does that mean? Or even I think about laws, in Deuteronomy about women on their period need to sit on a hay, and it's like, does that apply to me? No, let's talk about the context. Right? And so it's it's exciting and freeing to know that the Bible, it's living, it's breathing, and that it can have a message for us today, because it was sat in a cultural context then.

Travis Albritton: 32:52

Right? And I think one of the the trepidations, the hesitations of hearing that, especially if it's a for the first time is thinking, Oh, so is it just like, is the Bible does whatever you want to make it? Right? So if it's cultural, if it's occasional, does that mean you can just interpret it however you want to? So we're definitely not saying that. Okay, so so the question you're getting at is, what what is our understanding of the word truth? When we say something is true when we say the Bible is true? What is that mean? Is it relative? fair game, whatever you want to think it means? Is there a singular understanding that that we have discovered that we've locked on to and then we're just going to put under lock and key and make sure it never changes? Because we've discovered it once and for all? Like, like, how should we think about understanding truth and this might be getting like, super prosaic and like out in left field, but I think it's an important thing to talk through. When we talk about context, we talk about the occasional nature of Scripture, the cultural underpinnings of Scripture, it should not feel like a threat to your understanding of who God is. Instead, it's an opportunity to continue to grow in your understanding of truth.

Corina Espejo: 34:02

It's a little romantic, isn't it? Because I mean, like I think about me being married to my husband. If he's the same always in forever there's nothing new there's nothing new to learn. Or even just who he was, it looks the same always right. It's not very romantic. It's not very exciting versus a relationship with the Lord. It's exciting. There's something about it that it's changing and it's moving but what it is it stays the same how it's applied. It's it's a fun adventure. At least that's how I look at it. Not everybody will look at that that way, but that's how I see it.

Travis Albritton: 34:34

Right? Well, here's here's a really tangible example that I think will help Yeah, God is love. That is true forever and ever. Amen. If we're gonna use the biblical terminology for it, right? Like God is love. That is who he is. That is his nature, that will never change. So then when we as disciples are trying to model that love to one another, yeah, what that looks like will change right? Just click example, if you're married, if you're the Five Love Languages book, there's five different ways in that book that you can love your spouse, or other people that you have close relationships with, right? Each of those is a manifestation of love. It's not that one is better than the other quality time is not better than words of affirmation. They're just different ways of, of communicating that love to others. Yeah. And so to say that God is love, period, that is a truth we can hold on to, what does it mean, for us, you know, Korean, and I sitting in Jacksonville, Florida, in 2021, to love each other, to love our spouses and to love the people around us. That is a different answer, than if we lived in a different part of the world in a different time in history. Right? So it doesn't mean send somebody some doordash because they're feeling lonely, give them some ice cream, if you're in the 1400s. That's not the answer you come up with, for how do I love my neighbor as myself. And so, so again, just kind of reiterating the cultural underpinnings of the Bible is a blessing to us. Because it It allows us to, to discover these eternal principles and truths that we continue to learn more and more about and go deeper and deeper in and still find ways to apply them in our daily lives. And then one last thing, we don't want to beat a dead horse here. But one last thing to remember is that we don't actually know God, the way that we tend to think that we do. Right that if if you were to estimate your understanding of all knowledge about God in the universe, so you know everything about God, who he is, how he operates, what he thinks about what he cares about as 100%, what percentage would you put yourself out on that scale? Right? And how far below 1% is that number? Right? Right. And so and so I think it's easy, especially if you're a leader, if you've been in ministry, if you've been in disciple for any length of time, to to kind of look around you and say I know more than the average bear about God. So I probably know most of the things that I need to know about God, instead of acknowledging the the mystery and and the grandness in the, just the immensity of who God is. Yeah. And be excited about the fact that he's calling us into a deeper and deeper relationship with him, that we will never reach the end of, yeah, we will never learn everything there is to know about God and His heart, and what it means to follow Jesus. And that should be exciting to us, that there isn't an X marks the spot that you reach it and you finished. But there's always more room to grow, there's always new things to learn, there's always new ways that we can deepen our understanding of who God is, how he relates to us, and how we relate to one another. And that should not feel like a threat to truth is a foundation for our convictions, right, those salvation issues that should not feel like a threat to that. Instead, it's just an acknowledgement that there is still more to learn. There are still things that we haven't figured out yet. And that's okay. Because there will always be things we haven't figured out. And that's not a problem, right? That's not a problem. That's, that's not something that should should feel like a threat to your faith in any way.

Corina Espejo: 38:03

Yeah. And I love that. Because when we do that, and we let God be again, God, and not us, and not our perspective, or what we think we are going to approach this question of, what does the Bible have to say about women? When we take that God's perspective, the best we can again, we're gonna see, wow, this question needs to encompass all women. God loves all women, God loves men, all men. And this is not just this question isn't just as it applies to wives with children, right? Or women in leadership, it only applies to you know, I don't even know what what you all think. But it's good to embrace the what you think that means. And then realize, wow, God is looking at everybody the big picture,

Travis Albritton: 38:46

right? Because that's the the natural inclination. And that's, you know, if we're honest, that's how we've approached the question in the past, right? So if we read the Bible and say, What does the Bible have to say about women, and their roles in family and church and ministry in life? We kind of pigeonhole it to well, the Bible speaks a lot about families. So our answer is really gonna be tailored towards that. But then, what does the Bible have to say about widows? and the role that God has for them in building up His kingdom? Yeah. What about single moms? Yeah. What about married couples that can't have kids? Right? Does that mean that there's somehow lesser than or that God doesn't have a plan for them? Right. And so we want to make sure that as we're approaching this question, we're doing it from a holistic perspective. Yeah. Right, that we're not just answering the question of how should a wife, you know, submit to her as husband, if you're thinking forward to the New Testament, and raise her children and support a husband if he's in a leadership role? Like that's, that's one person. Yeah, right. What about everyone else in the church? What does the gospel have to say for them? What does God have to say for them? So as we're doing this extra Jesus, and as we're teasing out these passages, and as we're looking at On text, that's going to be another thing that we look at. Right? When we're talking about audience we're talking about who is this written for? How does that apply not just to women and men in a particular situation. But in each of these different scenarios, and in each of these different life experiences and perspectives, that is reality, which is the real life of how are churches made up? And how God designed for it to look, right. So we want to make sure our answer is as holistic as the churches.

Corina Espejo: 40:26

Yeah, I love that. And I really hope you all think about the fullness of that implication, like Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is bigger than just asking, you know, say, can a woman preach to a mixed audience on Sunday. But again, thinking about the fullness of the women in your church globally, hear where you're at whatever local church, right, the implications for black, white, Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern, everybody, anybody that you can think of socio economically, what this means for women on all levels of education, what this means for women, who may be considered disabled or quote, unquote, abled, neurodivergent, I mean, really think about the implications for your sisters in church. And don't just classify them in one category, married, not married, single, and not like, you've got to be able to look at, you know, your sisters in Christ. And as well, I think that includes men.

Travis Albritton: 41:16

So just as a recap, because we talked about a lot of stuff today. When we talk about foundations for moving forward, this toolset, we're gonna be using this question, what is the role of women in our church and in ministry, and in the assemblies is always going to be seated and rooted in major biblical themes that we see in the Bible, whether that's the gospel, whether that's the theme of the redemption of creation, and seeing that as it plays out throughout the Bible, we want to make sure we're not missing the forest for the trees, and that whatever conclusions we come to about this particular question, we can link directly to these broader biblical themes. We also talked about that there are actually three different buckets of doctrine that any question any discussion will naturally fall into one of these places, whether it's a salvation issue, which isn't something that we have the flexibility of, of arguing or you know, budging on, there are sound practices that are important things for us to wrestle with. But aren't salvation issues or disfellowship issues, even in the matters of opinion, things that will vary from time to time place to place, church to church, and are totally up for discussion? We also talked about the importance of not using labels and words that are commonly in use around this question, whether it's egalitarian complementarian. Alright, I just broke the rule seven, we're gonna talk about it. We talked about a little bit in the summary, but from now on, I promise, we're not gonna use these words. But really why those words are bad to use in the first place. They shut down conversation, they shut down discussion, and they really actually lean you closer to eisah, Jesus, of approaching the Bible with an answer already in mind, and then asking the Bible to basically confirm the thing you've already decided is true. We don't want to do that. Which is why instead we're really gonna focus on proper exit Jesus, of these Bible passages, especially when they're very difficult to understand, then it becomes even that much more important than we talked about acknowledging the context of the passages of the books of the Bible, as we're setting them out to make sure that our application is true to the original intent, that every single passage in Scripture in Bible is situational, or occasional in nature, that it wasn't just written in a vacuum. But there was a reason that writer decided that no, this needs to be written, and that God really gave them the words to write to that audience, and that there are cultural underpinnings for each of those passages and each of those stories, and that understanding that culture really brings to life the Bible, and new and exciting ways and should not feel like a threat to our understanding of who God is, and what he means to us. But just to wrap this up, and reiterate, Corina, why are we making this podcast? What is what is the purpose of us even going through the trouble of laying this foundation and making sure that we're on the same page about how to read the Bible?

Corina Espejo: 44:10

Yeah, as we approach this conversation, it's really important, we kind of break these things down, we're on the same page, because when we provide this thorough and practical study, we don't want you guys to get tripped up on some of these foundational concepts. So as we answer this question, we really just want you to feel like there's no hidden agenda or expectations, but that we are a people who love each other who love our church family, our movement and ICC. And again, we just want what's best for it as we approach this difficult question.

Travis Albritton: 44:38

Right? You may be frustrated by our lack of commitment to any one particular argument or another. And that's actually pretty deliberate. Yeah. We really just want this to be a resource for you. We don't have expectations for how you use this podcast. Whether you listen to it, don't listen to it, tell people about it, don't tell people about it. We just want To be of service to you, and hopefully you can hear that in our intent in putting these episodes together. But that wraps up this foundational episode number one. So now we have all the tools that we need in order to move forward and start digging into some of these passages that you're really I know, probably chomping at the bit for us to discuss and so in the next episode, Jason Alexander, who can actually read Hebrew and study it out and is a leader in a church out in the Pacific Northwest here in the United States is gonna be joining us to dig into the book of Genesis, specifically Genesis chapters one and two. So if you want to get that episode, when it comes out, make sure that you subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening to this episode, and sign up at the email newsletter, women church podcast calm, you'll get emails about new episodes as they come out. Bible study guides, handouts, resources for you to use within your own leadership team with your church and for your own personal Bible study. So you just go to women church podcast comm to sign up for that. We hope you found this illuminating and helpful and we look forward to seeing you for episode number two