#7. Deacons, Apostles, and Fellow Workers

In this episode, author and teacher Jeanie Shaw joins the podcast to discuss the cultural norms of the Greco-Roman world and the lessons we should take from Paul's list of commended fellow workers in Romans 16.

Grab your copy of "The View From Paul's Window: Paul's Teachings on Women" by Jeanie Shaw.

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Travis Albritton: 0:01

Welcome back to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look at what the Bible teaches about women in church. For the ICOC, and Corina, today we have just a lovely guest. Joining us. Yes, we do. Jeannie, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Jeanie Shaw: 0:17

Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I've really enjoyed the episode so far, I really appreciate the the spirit in which they're done and the information that's given. So it's great to be here.

Travis Albritton: 0:30

Wonderful. Well, if we've passed the test so far, that's great to hear. For anyone who's listening to this that isn't familiar with your book, or worked with you in ministry, just give us a little bit of background of kind of your experience with ministry, your academic background, and also the work you've done on this topic in particular.

Jeanie Shaw: 0:47

Oh, okay. Sure. Well, I'll try to do this briefly, even though I'm 67 years old, so I won't go through year by year. But it is interesting, I, I knew I always just wanted to, especially for my teen years on I wanted to just live forgot I wanted to make a difference for him in this world. I didn't quite know how to do it. I became a Christian when I was a young team. And you know, tried to, you know, I shared my faith with different people, different ways. But I thought, you know, maybe I was mistake, they should have been a man because I really wanted to, you know, be a missionary or do something breaching something. I don't know why just, you know, I didn't really want to be a man. But I felt like I didn't know how to do that. But I met my husband when we were in college at the University of Florida. And my husband Wyndham, he wanted to go in the ministry and did and that was great, because I had that deep desire as well. And so right out of college, I went into the ministry, the ripe old age of 20. And I just retired last month, and I'm 67. So you can do the math. I've been in the ministry quite a while I started in campus ministry, we did take a step working with hope worldwide for about eight years, which was a tremendous experience. And then I served for many, many years in the Boston church is a women's ministry leader, my husband was an elder and evangelist. Sadly, I lost him about two years ago, he passed away after a terrible neurological disease, and I miss him every day. And I feel like I've never been really a single woman in the ministry. And it also helps me realize that and that can be challenging can be very challenging. But how I got on this subject, I probably it was about maybe it was less than it maybe about six or seven years ago, I was teaching at the European Bible school. And the women's section was on First Timothy two, and I was given a section on shall be saved through childbirth. And I thought, What in the world? Is this talking about? You know, really, I mean, is this, they must have messed up in the scripture they gave me and I started looking at the whole thing and realize, I had just stopped those things for years, because I didn't know what they meant. I didn't know how to explain them. And I never really heard them talked about. And so I just stuffed them. But I felt like I needed answers I needed to find out and I was you know, I knew the Bible could explain itself. And I didn't have to be scared of anything. And so I really set out on a journey I studied, I read Oh, yeah, Amazon loved me. I spent a lot of money on books. And I read so many books, so many commentaries. I spent about three years studying, I didn't have the intention of writing a book at the time, but then, honestly, I decided to to help me put it together and make sense because I thought if I can't, if I can't write it down and talk about it in a way that makes sense, then, you know, I probably really haven't learned it. And so that's how the book The view from Paul's window, Paul's teachings on women was born. And it was a really challenging experience in many ways, but I so appreciate you certainly on a topic like this. I did not want to write in a vacuum. And I got a tremendous amount of input from so many teachers and people who are smarter than me on different subjects that really helped to shape it. And again, it's not the final word. It's just it's my thoughts of what I've learned from my study, I was able to participate in the ICC taskforce that put together by And gender book. But the thing that excited me more than even just the topic was feeling like, I was starting to appreciate the big picture of the Bible, the story of the Bible in a way that just thrilled me, Old Testament had been kind of, you know, the way I was taught that was just old. And you could get some Bible stories out of it. But it really, we were the New Testament church. And so I didn't really have a flow of how the narrative worked. And it just helped me so much, which is why I appreciate those episodes that Jason gave that was great. And, you know, maybe I discovered a couple things in the pandemic, one that I had always wanted to get some further training. And my husband and I joked about this, some because he was in graduate school when we were early married. And I wanted to take some classes. But it was very clear that that was not for women. He apologized for that a lot later, but it was so supportive when I told him, I really wanted to go back to school. And so about two years ago, now I graduated with my Master's in spiritual formation, loved Oh, I loved it. And so I thought, I really want to do some adjunct teaching, I want to be involved in you know, in formation of students lives and thinking, and just to keep learning. So I began, this year, I began my doctorate program in the same fields, and I'm loving it, absolutely loving it. So it's been, it's been a great journey. And I figured, hey, I'll be Lord willing, 70 years old when I graduate. But hey, you know, I'm still here. God's not done with me yet. So we'll see what happens.

Travis Albritton: 6:46

Amen to that we're very grateful that you're here. And that certainly God is not done with you yet, for sure. So Jeannie, as we were kind of joking about before we started recording, we saved all the great all the easy Scriptures for you.

Jeanie Shaw: 6:59

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Travis Albritton: 7:03

So it's everyone that's listening to this point, thanks for being patient with us. And waiting until now. Because now that we've kind of laid that foundation of the whole Bible as a narrative arc, understanding the perspectives we can bring to interpreting it. Now we have the tools in the background knowledge that we need to push forward. So Jeanie, why don't you just kind of kick us off with laying the land a little bit, before we get into the epistles, we get into the early church writings, especially Paul, because most of the stuff we're going to be reading for the rest of this podcast is from Paul, and just kind of give us a lay of the land. So when we start going through these passages and going through these different verses, and scriptures, just to kind of understand where we should be coming from, and some things that we should be aware of that we might bring into it that we probably need to leave on the sideline.

Jeanie Shaw: 7:53

Oh, great. Thank you for that. I think that's a great and important question. And you, I know that when we talk about this, it is important to really look at the culture and the authors that we're writing. Because these are, these are letters, they're letters written, they're inspired by God, but they're letters written for us. They're not letters written to us, and our own culture. And sometimes it's hard to, to figure all that out. And I just want to say, just kind of in the beginning, that I realized that culture is merely a component of interpretation. But it's a component that we can often miss. And I think it can be scary to talk about culture, because if we can feel like Oh, if this is cultural than what you know, is everything cultural in the Bible? What can we hold to? And those are important questions. But, you know, just for some background, you know, culture is really defined as the way our way of life of groups of people, the things they do an integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief and behavior, their outlook, attitudes, values, morals, goals, and customs, you know, shared by a society. But the thing is, these ways of life, they might be godly, or they might be godless. And we certainly see throughout the pages of the Bible a lot more godlessness, certainly that is being just repeated again and again. But thank God, He gives us a way out, I really appreciate that. But you I believe, culture has got to be evaluated then and the parameters of God's view of his holiness of His justice of His love and unity, and his kingdom plan his kingdom. Well, we can hear a lot today. And morality is often defined culturally. But we can know God's holiness is constant. You know, it's not like oh, this culture can be more Because it's accepted, no, his holiness is constant. This God's holiness defines whether a cultural mores godly or as worldly, you know, then atrocities like slavery. They were in our cultural, but they defied God's justice. legalism was a cultural practice and can still be there keeps the letter of God's laws, but misses God's love. And, you know, we're not gonna we're not going to all agree, is we strive to understand and follow some of the more difficult things and God's word. And that's why I believe the desire for unity is got to be our desire, and more important than getting our way even because God desires unity makes that very clear. But I did appreciate so much the time you took on the background of the Old Testament and in Genesis and even some of the patriarchal lenses because we do have lenses through which we view scripture, right? You spent good time talking about new Jesus, living and teaching, and the apostles teaching and that ancient Near Eastern culture and it's not always easy to span meaning across cultures and centuries. And just to give you a little example, I asked my granddaughter if she she's 18 I asked her if she could just connect compile letter for me and I wanted to abusing her cultures vernacular. And I just want to read this and think how we might if this landed in the laps of the ancient Near East culture, how might they try to exegete this so bear with me here? So my peeps john, Susan, Peter and Julie Yo, the prof was being such a force today like No wonder Shane cuffed yet she's legit such a Karen went to the mall so I can flex on the class how professional I looked for the presentation. Then went to present it in class the next day, drowning in my new drip looking snatched, masked and vast because that's the law here. The prof is acting so sauce, she said I lose 20 points for submitting the dreaded thesis a minute late. Does she not have an apple watch? The time was legit. I thought she was capping but turns out she was spitting facts from her time max. I Loki thought the text was fire after dough. The presentation was sick though so idk why she was being a sketch. bad vibes all around no cap. She legit didn't look up wants from her desk while I presented then gave me a 60 like pro I was mad, salty. idk while she was throwing some shade, so then I called her out after class for your sake, so this won't happen again. Turns out she didn't think my dope fit was appropriate attire. smh because it was too casual. I literally looked so dope though. Like mom jeans and a crew neck give boss vibes only tbh. Like if you never saw the fit. I think you'd put me with Harry Styles over you. I pointed out the rubric never said attire mattered and then she finessed my grade after savage moves only for this Queen period T grades all Gucci now next class is lit so we'd be vibing next teachers the goat. I think that's all the tea but I'll keep the squad posted if she rages anymore. This shouldn't happen again. You are welcome. Peace out, fam. So

Travis Albritton: 13:27

that makes perfect sense.

Jeanie Shaw: 13:30

You follow that? Completely right?

Corina Espejo: 13:31

Oh Hunter. Most of it most of it.

Jeanie Shaw: 13:35

I heard some of it. But I just tried to think you know, in another culture in another language to try to gather What's going on? You know, we think oh, peeps, you know, john says Peter, Julie, what kind of names are those? The prof you know, somebody is cuffed? They must be in prison. Her name is Karen. Oh, mass bakst. And it's law. So we better obey the law. Yeah, there's an apple involved. You know, that must be there must be something with the I don't know. I mean, you we could go on, but I think we can see it's not easy. It's not easy. And this generation for me, you know, baby boomer with a Gen Z to know what in the world are you talking about? And yet, that's the nature of letters. Now, granted, they were inspired by God, the writers were inspired. But there were letters written to specific problems and specific cultures. And I said that just to kind of get us thinking, it's not so easy, right? And, you know, the thing we can know is that we can know because the Bible is inspired everything we need to have a relationship with God, from a simple reading of the Bible. And yet in interpretation can become short sighted or get lost in translation. When we don't consider word meanings, or biblical historical cultures, genres, such as historical narratives, or poetry, the use of metaphors and eye pearlies and word meanings that are so rich, and yet often so different from our preconceived understandings. And I think I've mentioned this, but I know I've studied the Old Testament more lately than I ever have. And it is thrilled me because I realized, Oh, this is the continuation of the same story. It really isn't. It's opened my eyes in so many ways. You I think we have to just realize the views that we have from others windows are important it affects they affect the way we read the Bible. And as we're going to view, the world of the some of the New Testament writers, particularly Paul, realize that they paint words, pictures with their words, and they can't really be always reduced to objective qualifying definitions, again, as mentioned in the difference in western and eastern thought, but they're more channels of thought more than patterns of one dimensional meanings. You know, they're just, I think, what was mentioned the patriarchal lens. And I just want to say a couple things about that, because it does take up so much ink in the Scriptures, that I think it's very easy to think that it is God's ordained plan. But is it? Is it simply a culture of the day to which the kingdom culture is introduced? You know, Aristotle had household codes. And you know, women that they were that women should obey, men are in charge. Household codes, and Greco Roman culture imitate this, and they're so different from the scriptures that show a different way of treating each other. I don't believe that God is trying to replicate the structure, but is teaching us how to live in the confines of then the Roman world in a Christ like way. And we know that in the very beginning, he countered that culture when he said, a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. You know, Abraham left his home and family, which was a counter to patriarchal practice, and then was asked to sacrifice his son again, that's not in keeping with patriarchy. And certainly it was used for a lot of good is that help populate the earth. polygamy was allowed. I don't believe it was God's plan, but it was allowed leveret marriages, laws protected the widows and orphans and the marginalized. It did a lot of good and order and protection, but it also produced polygamy, primogeniture, privileges of the firstborn violence, slavery, use and devaluation of women, competition for territory and power, earthly kingdoms and entitlement. And, you know, remember, worldly kingdoms weren't God's idea. Kings weren't God's plan and for Samuel eight, but he allowed them because he had desired his will to be done on earth is in heaven. He wanted to Heavenly Kingdom culture. And I think as we look into the epistles, it's just important to realize that like Jesus, Paul taught in the way that people understood in their day seeking to bring the kingdom of God thinking into their worldly cultures from the inside out, not the outside and through cultural revolutions are wars. And then of course, we have our own cultural lens in the churches of Christ and ICSC and you mentioned that some last week and the thing I realized and when I began to study is that I did a lot of selective literalism you know, I read some things the Bible and said Oh, yeah, that's just what it says. But then in the same chapter, other things it's Oh no, we don't do that. You know, and so how do we how do we deal with that we're okay with gold jewelry and braids. We don't lift holy hands in prayer. And what does that even about? You know, women aren't allowed to teach where there are men yet First Corinthians 14 instructs them on how to do it and what to do. What in the world the saved through childbearing mean what about the angels? disease, deception means you can't speak things didn't add up for me and I realized there was a bigger picture and I had to really come to understand how I practice selective literalism. You know, it's interesting, I've been studying a lot the restoration movement and our founding fathers there and, and just seeking more unity. And what's interesting is, certainly that didn't happen too well. But even in the late 1800s, in the restoration movement, there were women missionaries, there were women, preachers. And that surprised me when I realized that. And the last thing I want to say about this is just we can have blinders to our lenses obstacles to seeing beyond our own presuppositions. And I honestly think and I can relate to this, one of them is fear, fear of asking questions, a fear of seeing problems, because for me that complicated things, I didn't just have my neat little answers. But I realized the Bible can withstand my questions. I'm grateful for that. And this study is only brought me to a greater offer the scriptures. But I honestly I did have a fear that if I started questioning some things in the Bibles, then I'm questioning God, and these, it's the Holy Scriptures, and God is holy, and I didn't want to be reckless with that. And I don't want to be reckless with that, as I mentioned, I've been struck by lightning for real once, I didn't want to see that happen again, I did survive, I'm grateful. You know, I think we can have a fear of being wrong. And you know, I learned the best I can. But I also know that many fully committed hearts for God and greater mind surround me. And I need conversations, you know, I'm confident on some things, on some things, I'm sure without intending to be that I'm wrong. Because that's the nature you know, I can't be right all the time. And on some I may well be right. And on some, it's just impossible to know. And, you know, I think we've got to become aware of the lenses that we use. And it's easy to let just even some things in our life, fog up our lenses. Because we all have unique windows, we can even read scripture through our own pain, sometimes through our family background, when we've had a broken family, or No dad, or there was abuse, or he was absent or authoritarian, we can read that through our own pain, again, abuse, neglect, trauma, Death of loved ones through our ethnicity, gender, socio economic factors, you know, I would read it differently if I was brought up in a warzone. Or if I didn't know where my next meal was going to come from our culture. It's been mentioned our resources and education, our ability to read well to comprehend special needs. And I know even though I like to think of myself as educated, I've realized this past couple of years, some eye opening, heart jarring things that I learned from educating myself about even things like systemic racial inequality in our country, the land of the free things I was taught, and things that were suppressed that had a huge impact on my understanding your political backgrounds, our social systems, our religious traditions, we read our Bible through all of these. And you know, just the last thing on this, I can give you another example of this recently, I have a good friend, and she'd written a devotional, as we were preparing for a women's event on Esther from chapter one, and she'd highlighted Queen Vashti. And from my window, because I was raised in a loving Christian home with a strong father and a mom, who was who was very kind, she didn't say a lot. Her role in the home was to raise the children to cook to clean and tasks that were deemed appropriate for women. You know, I learned that I was never to talk back in any way, or speak up concerning thoughts or preferences as this was disrespectful to authority. And, you know, you'll just obeyed. Now, obedience is a good thing. There's nothing wrong with being obedient. But back to the devotional. You know, I'd been taught growing up and therefore assumed, given the view from my window that Vash date was wrong. In her response to her husband, King's Xerxes, after all the text says, her disobedience to the king's command would embarrass him and cause other women to disrespect him. Yet, my friend had grown up in an abusive, sexually abusive background, and for her that she was a hero, because she was willing to stand up and not be probably paraded and naked, or just for her beauty to a group of a drunken party. And so how we viewed that was very different from our background, and then just helped me to understand a little more how that how that takes place. So anyhow, that's a lot Right there,

Travis Albritton: 25:00

yes, but a wonderful intro. And just so grateful for all those little nuggets, you drops, there's little threads we're gonna be able to pull over the next several weeks. But we wanted to kind of kick things off with a passage that, you know, a surprising number of disciples just don't even know about, which is Romans chapter 16. I think it's because we get bogged down in like chapter nine and 10. We're trying to like figure out like, what is Paul saying, it seems like he switches audiences right in the middle of his letter. And so so we wanted to walk through Romans 16. But first, just kind of give us a sense of what's going on in the church of Rome at this time, give us some background into this letter. And any kind of cultural context that we need to be aware of, you know, before we actually read through this passage, and start breaking it into pieces and pulling it apart.

Jeanie Shaw: 25:48

Oh, yeah. I love this passage of Scripture. I love Romans. You know, people said, if you get Romans, you get the whole Bible. And there's so much truth in that. But Chris, Romans was written late in Paul's career in the background, it's a church of Jews and non Jews. The church had been around for a while, but the Emperor Claudius and expelled the Jews from Rome, and but five years later, and vited them back. And upon their return, the Jewish Christians then found a church that have become very non Jewish. And that created as you see, as you read through the book of Romans a lot of vision. And so one of Paul's goals was to see that divided church united, some commentators feel like that was kind of a staging ground before he wanted to go to Spain, and was really addressing, particularly in Romans 16, those who are house church leaders are hosted the house churches in their homes. But the letter itself, it talks about righteousness, the new humanity that God has created, because these are the things that can unite the church again, the inside out. Paul begins in Genesis telling the story of how broken the world is, and the Jews are listened to thank you. Yeah, those Gentiles, they really are messed up. I mean, goodness from the beginning, and Paul and says, excuse me, you are just as guilty, and maybe even more so because you've had the law. And basically is the in Gordon Ferguson's phrase that I love, you basically tells us the best of us is a mess. And two of his phrases stand out for me and Romans, that one, the best of us is a mess. And yet God justifies us just as if I had never sent you I believe a theme is that all people are invited to this multi ethnic family based on faith, Jews and Gentiles this new of humanity. Of course, he then he goes into if this was God's plan, then why was there need for the Torah, and Paul helps us see that it was, it focuses the problem of the human condition on Israel, so that we can better understand it, and Jesus took care of it. But Jesus transforms hearts, and that unity, especially in chapters, 12, and 13, are gonna is going to come from our commitment, to love, to serve, to give to each other and to forgive each other and to respect each other's differences. Because this is the background, there were a lot of differences, a lot of disrespect, a lot of things that need forgiveness. And then I believe when he gets to chapter 16, he's painting a beautiful picture of unity were a third of the people he mentions are almost a third are women. They're from different backgrounds. Some are Jews of higher standing. Some are non Jews, some of them have names that would denote that they were freed people are from background of slavery. And I love that Paul highlights these probably house church leaders just to show everyone is needed. And we can be united and this is what the church is supposed to be a group of people from all kinds of backgrounds, men and women choose Gentile. All of the rich, poor free slave that we are united in one and it's a beautiful letter depicting all that

Corina Espejo: 29:27

suit. Let's jump in. Let's read this passage. And yeah, let's let's get into it a little bit more. Roman 16. And I'll just be reading verses one to 16. And I'm reading from ESV today. So Romans 16 verse one says, I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at century that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and help her in whatever she may need from you for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well. Great Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well. Greet also the church in their house, greet my beloved at panatuss, who was the first convert to Christ in Asia? Great Mary, who has worked hard for you, great Andronicus and Jr, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles and they were in Christ before me, great amply, Gaddis, my beloved in the Lord, great Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ and my beloved stoechas great appellees, who is approved in Christ, greet those who belong to the family of Aristo. beuliss, great my kinsmen. herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus. Greet those workers in the Lord. Try fania and try fossa greet the beloved persis who has worked hard and Lord great Rufus chosen in the Lord. Also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well. Great a sin kritis flygon. Hermes Petrova us are a mess, and the brothers who are with them, great, Philo Lucas, Julia neris, and his sister, and Olympus and all the saints who are with them, greet one another with a holy kiss all the churches of Christ greet you.

Travis Albritton: 31:19

Well done, Corina, got your name, your Greek name, a quota. And for the week,

Corina Espejo: 31:25

I don't think I've ever had to say those out loud. You know, you kind of read it in your head, and I'm like, Oh, I apologize to anybody who's Greek, or whatever, wherever these names come from, forgive me. So first question I have just within this passage, I mean, not necessarily throughout all of Romans 16. But maybe just this passage, when you hear some of these statements. Are there any verbiage or concepts that kind of sit within the context of the Scripture, something that's more temporary? Or can it transcend the context of Romans that it was written in? Can I read it now and still get a feel for what is being said?

Jeanie Shaw: 32:02

I would think it would be very transcending because it's just a commendation of you know, he's really not giving any directives here he Paul is only commending these men and women who have been his partners, some in prison with him, and who worked hard with him together for the gospel. And that would be a transcending principle two is that they work together very hard with him. I think that's an operative word, they worked with him. That's what he emphasized, they didn't talk about they were under me, you know, his Apostle Paul, but they work together for the common cause of Christ, and to really have him be known. And again, many scholars believe these were probably house church leaders that he was writing to. And this is one of the ways that it's countercultural, from what we have bought many times when in that patriarchal world to show that Paul thinks differently. You know, he understands his culture, but he thinks differently, course. Phoebe, the word for servant is, you know, it's our word for Deacon or deaconess or minister. And I wonder, because many people have tried to say it wasn't really an official position, because but I wonder sometimes if we would have this discussion, if it was a male name in their eye, most scholars are don't dispute the fact that this was some kind of recognized position in the church, she was probably the patron of that house church, which often met that they would organize it and run it. And she delivered the letter from Paul to the church in Rome, which was honestly quite honorable. And most of the time, I've learned that people who delivered the letters were also the ones who read them. She was probably quite educated and even expounded on them. And that Paul, not only in trusted her with that, but asked that she be received in a way worthy of the saints, and you know that she would be assisted in any way she needs. And even a little bit of another countercultural thing. And the next verse, Priscilla, and Aquila, I used to say a quilt because it rhymes. I'm not sure what it is Priscilla, and Priscilla and Aquila. But again, Paul calls them fellow workers. And of course, you know, we know that they shared the gospel and taught together, but it was just a common form of writing that the man's name went first. I don't want to make too much of it. But I think it's in this literary context here. He puts Priscilla first, which I don't know, you know, yet. We don't know how intentional that was. But it's certainly not the norm of how things were done in this patriarchal world. And, you know, they were people who both risked their lives for Paul, and there wasn't any kind of delineation of the men all did this. And the women, you know, maybe they made food or something, you know, which is fine, but they were in there in prison and risking their lives. They were part of this ministry, very hard working. And, you know, I believe that it's significant, that he names these women along with the men, because it was not a common practice. And it was not something that was, I don't know, in the in the setting of the culture of that time. Women were not often given that kind of honor that Paul gave them. And so I think that's so significant. I love the Scripture, it just inspires me. And always gave me hope. And it is funny how we can just read over those those are very seldom talked about, and I think sometimes even in discussions on women are just, it's not mentioned is one of them, because because it's not a directive so much.

Corina Espejo: 36:36

Yeah, I could definitely see that now that you're saying that looking at all the names and the the verbiage that Paul uses fellow workers, my fellow prisoners, right, and he uses that across the board between the men and the women and even from them to himself Paul an apostle, there seems to be just this. We are all one in Christ, we are together, there's no one above the other or more important than the other. It's, there's a certain togetherness about this. Yes. fellow worker, again, you know, you see it all throughout how he mentioned some, when we think about it, and you mentioned presuppositions, right? Or the things that we suppose before approaching the scriptures or assumptions. Are there any other in reading Romans 16, that you can think of, particularly as we all look, at least if you're on the Western Front, but as we all look at this passage, from that Western cultural lens, or even a patriarchal lens, or even our, you know, Church of Christ, or ICC lens?

Jeanie Shaw: 37:35

Well, there is a theory as the interesting debate that went on for quite a while. And that is about junia. And you know, that she was spoken well of among the apostles, it's written in different ways that IV says they were outstanding among the apostles. And because that language was used, people tried to say that junia was a male, because how could she be? How could a woman be outstanding among the apostles? And so maybe that's a preconceived notion. Really, most all scholars agree that this name was only used as a as a female. But I also think people try to say, okay, that she was, you know, she was certainly not one of the 12 they're the 12 apostles, capital A. And, you know, apostles are really bearers of the witness of Jesus, you know, they're, you know, there's a lot of little a apostles that were, if you want to describe it like that. So I don't think there's any statement to be made of, Oh, she was one of the apostles, you she was outstanding among the apostles. And certainly, all of these women were very much a part of getting the message of Jesus out and working hard for, for him. And so, certainly, outstanding among the apostles would be a very appropriate view. But it's funny how this these presuppositions tried to change for many, amongst some tried to change the name, because certainly that could not be a woman. And I think that's an example of looking through a lens of our own culture and what we're

Corina Espejo: 39:25

used to. Yeah, and I I've loved hearing even just in previous episodes from Jason, being able as we talk about selective literalism, or just the lens that we all have grown up with and we have understanding more about the Bible and even women throughout the Bible, you know, even we talk about those who have witnessed apostle being okay, something to the effect of witnessing Christ in the first evangelists being women, that even within Romans 16 there are a number of different women but it's hard i think i the conclusions, we jumped Because of our pre suppositions, being aware of it, being careful of it and doesn't have to mean everything is wrong threw everything out the window, you know, but it is it's good just to kind of be aware as you were talking about. Are there any other that you've noticed have come up in Romans 16 any other presuppositions?

Jeanie Shaw: 40:22

Not really? No, I think that again, because these are, I don't think these are passages that are trying to state. This is what women are allowed to do in church or not, I think they were a combination of get member The, the focus of this letter was uniting divided church through faith through the justification offered by Jesus. That was the focus, the focus wasn't on the structure of a church. Again, it was probably dealing with house churches at this time. And people mentioned, were usually ones who were hosting or leading, if you would say those house churches. But again, I don't think we can really draw conclusions except for they had a place they Paul valued them highly. Certainly there was some kind of role that we know that Phoebe played some kind of specific church role that she had. So I don't want to try to take more than the scripture allows us to take from it. But certainly the theme of unity and the value that Paul wanted to be made known throughout time of women, that were his partners, and the gospel can't be denied. And I appreciate that. That means a lot to me. I know as a woman,

Travis Albritton: 41:55

amen. And I just want to throw a carrot in here, just a little sticky note, because I love what you just said Jeannie about how like, it's so easy, especially if you come to the Bible with an idea of what you're hoping to find. like to just latch on to things and say, Oh, here it is, right. junia outstanding among the apostles, that answers all my questions. My search is done. I can Hey, if junia can be recognized for for preaching and for prayer, then, you know, everything else will just, it's not even relevant anymore. I have my answer. And so it's it's a caution to us. Right? I say we have to we have to take more on board than just finding some things that agree with what we're hoping the Bible says, and have the discipline to recognize how, how important or relevant or substantial is this one observation? And how much weight should we put on a single observation or a passage or something like that? Because because that can certainly be a danger. Right? Right to see something that says what you hoped it would say, and then now, like, that just becomes your new lens, right, that you now interpret the rest of the Bible through?

Jeanie Shaw: 43:07

No, I think that's important to bring up and, you know, what does that mean outstanding among the passes, we don't really know. You know, did it mean that they were that among people who were recognized as apostles, little a, she was one of the really outstanding ones. Or she was, you know, a group of pastors, they just this this woman, there is something amazing about her. We don't know all that. And we certainly can't build up a doctrine I don't believe around that of what this means

Corina Espejo: 43:41

what we can take away and what I'm hearing is Romans 16, just fits perfectly within the entire letter and Paul sentiment of unity and Christ and just loving each other, honoring each other. Throughout the work we do in the Gospel, right? He just ends it with these personal greetings and praise for the people that he's worked with both men and women alike. What can we draw from Paul's praise of the women but more specifically, in Romans 16, looking at the different dynamics that we see, you know, we see Phoebe who's alone. We see Priscilla and Aquila. Right? And then we see you know, say Andronicus and junia. We have all these dynamics. Let's first just look at the women and then let's put them in the context of, of maybe some of their their male partners. So we have Phoebe and you mentioned, you know, where she possibly single, who knows. But she's mentioned alone, right? Then we have Priscilla. And it sounds like all of these were almost house church leaders as what most scholars are suspecting they were in some way shape or form. leaders within their own right within that church. Some people think that she was a missionary. There was another context where her and her husband are resuming her and you know, Aquila is her husband They taught Apollo's together, right? And then we also have junia. Right? And there is that question, okay? She have male or she a female? most scholars believe she was a female. And we have that question. Okay. Was she an apostle or not? Or, in prepositions are hard in most languages, including English, right? So you have, you know, she was my Version says well known to the apostles in the apostles among the apart, right? Like, prepositions are hard. So yeah, so we have all these women, what can we gather, if anything from these dynamics, these different women?

Jeanie Shaw: 45:39

Well, I think one is that God can use us all. Regardless of our status or background, some single married like I'd mentioned of, of higher standing like Phoebe, from a background of slavery. These weren't differentiated the way we know that is by what their names were. But Paul, he counted them as his fellow workers. And to me, that is the most powerful thing that he states there, these are my fellow workers there. When someone's your fellow worker, there's a respect and honor. You know, men and women both can feel this. But there's a difference when you feel like you're okay, we have to include her, we have to say something to him. There's a difference when you are viewed as one of them. As a fellow worker, and you I would love to see more women have that opportunity to feel that they are fellow workers, with church leaders and among church leadership. Again, Paul's attitude here is beautiful, is beautiful. And he doesn't have to highlight them. But he does. And again, that's the thing that stands out to me, that's the biggest takeaway, no matter what their background is, their marital status, their role in society. to Paul, they are fellow workers.

Corina Espejo: 47:14

Yeah, in the multicultural world that we live in. Particularly in America, it's quite a bit of a melting pot, no matter where you are some cities more than others. I always find it interesting to think, Okay, well, how do we all feel honored and praise and figuring out how to pursue that, it's never going to be just one way, you know, for one person, it's, Hey, thank me from the pulpit from another person's like, Don't mention me at all, just get me a really nice Starbucks gift card, right? You know, like, in order to honor and to praise and to put value on different people. My heart goes out to churches where, you know, it's not going to be the same thing for any one person or group of people. I think about teens and how they love to be honored versus you know, of me as a millennial. It's going to it's going to change, but I think there's something about what I'm hearing is, it's on us to figure it out, figure out how to honor each other, how to praise each other, how to give those commendations in a way that's unifying in Christ.

Jeanie Shaw: 48:11

Can I say one thing there? Yeah, I think this. That's very important. I think we've got to have conversations with that. But also, I think we've got to take it upon ourselves to feel like you know what, I am just an unworthy servant. With God, I don't, I'm not doing anything for the praise of people. And that's a hard thing. Because we can get our feelings hurt. Again, there's a balance there, I think we should seek to honor each other and hear what that feels like or looks like for a person without assuming it's the same thing than us. Because the Bible instructs us to honor one another, above ourselves. And yet, it also instructs us to lay down our rights to consider others better than ourselves, to not do things for the praise of people. So I think all those things are there. We got to put those together. And that takes a lot of humility. takes a lot of prayer takes a lot of the Holy Spirit. The last teaching day I did in Europe, I had a little exercise I had the men and women. These were all people training for ministry, and had them line up on one side of the room, and you're talking about honoring each other and making each other feel valued. And the first questions were just more world centered, worldly centered questions I asked step forward. If you have ever had to plan your route, going home so that you wouldn't be feared being molested, you know, step forward. If you have had to really consider where you get on a subway so that you won't be fondled. Step forward if you had been paid less for the same job that a man is doing. And I went through some of those. But then the last six questions were, take a step forward, if you felt like you can't use gifts in the church, because of your gender, step forward, if you have felt like, if you say something with too much passion, you'll be corrected, step forward, if this and at the end of the time, when I ask these questions, every single woman had stepped forward on every single one. And the men were all lined up on the wall. And it wasn't the first questions that brought up the motions because women are used to that, you know, Okay, I gotta be careful if it was the last ones about how they felt treated in the church. And that they were there, many of them just had tears rolling down their eyes, because that's where the pain came from. That was sobering to see that. And I just say that as far as how to learn to help people feel respected. I know, personally, it's, I talked to so many people who so many women who say they feel like they are much more respected in their places of work than in the church. And that hurts. That makes me sad. That makes me really sad.

Travis Albritton: 51:23

So one thing I want to kind of interject here, as we're wrapping up this episode, and we're looking at how Paul commends these women, for the work that they're doing partnership in the ministry. One thing that we should certainly hang our hats on as a movement as a denomination is the fact that we actually do pay women to be in the full time ministry, that the role of women's ministry leader is actually pretty unique, even among the restoration churches, and then evangelical Christian Christianity at large. Typically, if you're going to be a woman serving in full time ministry, it's only because your husband is there. And you're kind of like an afterthought, like, well, you're the pastor, and then the pastor's wife, elder, and that elders wife, but you're not really given a seat at the table. You're not really valued for what you bring, to helping advance the ministry. And so so hopefully, that's a part of our DNA, we never lose that, that historically, we have elevated women in ways that other church denominations have not. My dog is going nuts.

Corina Espejo: 52:21

She's excited to

Travis Albritton: 52:23

that's the nature of a podcast, you get the home and home recording environment. But I also don't want to gloss over the fact that that that doesn't mean that there isn't work we can do, or corporate repentance that shouldn't take place, recognizing that there are areas where we fall short, where we don't recognize sisters for the work they're doing in advance in the kingdom, overlooking women that are serving in roles that need to be recognized. And they're just either off the radar, or it's indelicate to bring it up in a public setting. And I think it's up to each of us to really search our hearts and make sure that, that we're not being selective and who we praise and who we raise up. And that we really do embody the spirit that Paul gives us and Romans 16 that it's all of us together, and the picture of all of us together, that really makes the kingdom Shine On that

Corina Espejo: 53:13

note, I mean, let's, let's roll right into the takeaways. I I love Paul's themes. And Jeanie you mentioned his his overarching theme, all people are invited into this family of God and to new humanity that, you know, Jesus transforms our hearts. And it's him right that we have that unity unity to love each other. Whether that's in forgiveness or sacrifice, or even what we've talked about, talked about praising one another and commendations. I think taking our cues from Paul, how he ends this letter to the church, he ends it with just so much personal greetings of people he respected as fellow workers and for us to take our cues to figure out how can we do that? How can we bring that into our church, this unity and this appreciation for one another? I love it. It's still consistent with what we've been talking about throughout the entire narrative of the Bible. And yet it's it can be very convicting if we let it for us personally, and for us as a corporate church.

Travis Albritton: 54:10

Amen. But with that, we'll wrap this episode. Jeanie, we're excited to be back with us for the next week's episode as well. If you haven't yet signed up for the newsletter, you can do that for free at women church podcast comm there's also a link in the show notes, you can click that we'll send you study guides that you can use to dive deeper into these topics, and stay up to date with new episodes as they come out. But we hope you enjoyed this episode. And we hope you'll stick around for next week where we start digging into some more wonderful Pauline epistles and we're gonna dive headfirst and First Corinthians