#9. Ask Your Husband At Home

In this episode, author and teacher Jeanie Shaw joins the podcast to break down 1 Corinthians 14 and help us understand why Paul is commanding some of the women in Corinth to be "silent" in the public assembly.

Grab your copy of "The View From Paul's Window: Paul's Teachings on Women" by Jeanie Shaw.

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Transcript

Corina Espejo: 0:01

Welcome back to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look about what the Bible has to say about women in church for the ICC. I am Karina Ismay. Whoa, taken a go. Give it a go at this intro. And of course with me, I have Travis. Yes. Happy to be here. And coming back to help us through some of our Meteor scriptures is Jeannie SHA, our contender,

Jeanie Shaw: 0:25

great to be with you all, really.

Corina Espejo: 0:28

So we've been chatting through and you've been with us as we've been talking about some of these New Testament Scriptures from Romans 16, to First Corinthians 11. And we talked a little bit in our last episode about Corinth and Ephesus, and just the church there, the new Greco Roman woman, and even Paul's writing style. So for those of you who haven't listened yet, please go back and listen to some of our previous episodes, especially the last one. But definitely you want to listen from the beginning, it's a full thought. We're talking about the full narrative, which I know you talked about Gini, just really looking at the whole narrative from Old Testament to New Testament. So definitely go back and listen, but we're gonna keep going, we're gonna move on to First Corinthians 14. So can you give us a snapshot? Just a review, just a little taste of the background and themes of First Corinthians?

Jeanie Shaw: 1:19

Oh, sure. Well, remembering that Corinth was a bustling city, but much pagan background, there'd been previous worship of the goddess Aphrodite, and she was not one for purity, by any means. There were many temple prostitutes. You know how active that still was. And when the Corinth Church was established, we don't know. But we do know, it was a city full of idols full of pagan activities of all kinds. It was actually one where, interestingly, you know, Paul spent a good bit of time there, and you think, uh, why would he spend much time there? Well, you know, certainly it was one where it was more liberal of a lot of the cities and thus more welcoming to leader of a new religion. And he was more tolerated here actually, to proselytize to the Jews and the Gentiles. And that was a little different from some of the more conservative and rural places where he was often thrown out or even beaten or sent to jail. Actually, in grant, the pro console, Gallo legally approved his proselytizing. And that was kind of amazing. So you know, he, he actually spent some time as a tentmaker. There, he had some work to do there, obviously. And it was a place perhaps a little more open to it. Paul has been giving some correctives to the church in Corinth, especially about some of the order of their worship. But the teachings what he was getting at was a lot deeper than that even I love in First Corinthians 14, Paul has just finished writing his beautiful description of love, love being patient and kind and not self seeking. And then following the way of love, He gives some further correctives to the worship assembly. But I think as far as background, we likely underestimate the difference in what an assembly for worship look like in Corinth. And what we encounter today in our honestly very highly organized service well planned in advance with few speakers. And just a simple reading of First Corinthians 14 will show you very quickly how different it was. And, you know, just some of the background to earlier in the letter in chapter 12. Of course, nothing was chaptered inversed. In those days, it was just a letter. But earlier in the letter Paul's reminded the church of their pagan days, when they followed mute idols. And you know, then he says only the Spirit enables people to confess Jesus is Lord. And confessing Jesus is Lord. And it's such a history of idolatry was crucial, because they worshipped all kinds of gods. And Paul is pointed to Jesus who is Lord of all him. Paul then tells the church, how each person has different gifts we see in chapter 12, all are given by one Spirit. And since all Christians form one body and everyone's gifts are needed, one gift is not more important than another. You know, he talks about how there should be equal concern for each other unity, not division, and views of one's gifts is more important than another's was causing division. And then Paul talks about how no gift means anything. If there's not love, that's the most excellent way There really seems to me to be a bigger message in this letter that rises above even specific formulas for worship. And just a little background, as I read some of the background, I can relate to this a little too well, because for me, I feel like for a long time, I focus too much on the particulars above, being transformed into the image of Christ. And, you know, I don't know about some of you there. But I know by nature, not everybody's like this. I'm a rule follower. And I'm even an Enneagram. One, you know, my first job in high school was proofreading classified ads in the town newspaper, I mean, you can't get much more scrutinizing of that, right. And honestly, I fear I would make too good of a Pharisee questioning Jesus is a heal on the Sabbath, or pick rain with His disciples. And that makes me really sad. And also so grateful that the more I study the Scriptures, the more I come to know Jesus, and that everything in them centers on him. And I really believe in all the background of what Paul's writing here, the trajectory of his instructions, point his hearers, to the heart of Jesus. So that's a little bit of the background there, you know, in, in this, we get to chapter 14, Paul calls the Corinthians to eagerly desire the gifts of the Spirit, especially prophesy. Though Paul spoke in tongues, he reminds that the way we interact is to benefit others. And when there's no interpretation, there's no edification for anyone else, just the individual. And have a heart like Jesus means we want to excel in gifts that build up the church. Love isn't self seeking, but putting others above ourselves. And, you know, I know this topic is not is on women in the church, and the corrections Paul gives to both men and women. And the purpose of the attitude for order is needed. As is told in the verses in First Corinthians 14. Yeah, and I

Corina Espejo: 7:11

love that. And I think the the section we're about to read and focus on like you mentioned, this is the women in church podcast. So we'll kind of zoom in, but I thought that was a great overview for us to remember what this passage sits in just the letter as a whole and the sentiment, what you're touching on reminds me of verse 26, it says, Well, my brothers and sisters, let summarize when you meet together, one will sing another will teach another will tell some special revelation God is given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you. So that's kind of that big picture. Yeah. Well, I'm ready. Do you? Can we read the verse, the passages and let's jump into it. Go for it. Yes. All right. Well, let's dive into our passage today, as it sits in all of First Corinthians, but we're going to go to First Corinthians 14, verse 24. But if all of you are prophesying and unbelievers, or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin and judged by what you say. As they listen their secret thoughts will be exposed and they will fall to their knees and worship God declaring God is truly here among you. Well, my brothers and sisters, let summarise when you meet together, one will sing another will teach another rule, tell some special revelation God has given one will speak in tongues another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you know more than two or three should speak in tongues, they must speak at one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say. But if no one is present, who can interpret they must be silent in your church meeting, and speak in tongues to God privately. Let two or three people prophesy and let the others evaluate what is said. But if someone is prophesying, and another person receives a revelation from the Lord, the one who's speaking must stop. In this way, all who prophesy will have a turn to speak one after the other so that everyone will learn and be encouraged. Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns? For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace, as an all the meetings of God's holy people. All right, verse 34. Women should be silent during the church meetings, it is not proper for them to speak, they should be submissive, just as the law says if they have any questions they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings? Or do you think God's word originated with you, Corinthians? Are you the only ones to whom it was given? If you claim to be a prophet or think you are spiritual, you should recognize that what I am saying is a command from the Lord Himself. But if you do not recognize this, you yourself will not be recognized. So let's dive in. This is probably one of the more I'll say popular verses passages that people always want to know about. Why does Paul say that women should remain silent during public worship?

Jeanie Shaw: 9:59

You That is a very difficult question to answer Zubin direct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because what's interesting, as he's just talked about ways that men and women should conduct themselves as they're speaking. And so there's something more going on than just taking these couple of verses and saying, See, women aren't ever to say anything in church, because chapter 11, and verses and some verses earlier that we just read, assume that women are speaking, they are giving them words and obstruction in the church, I want to go back a minute to verse 24. Because the topic is on women and men in the church and the correction Paul gives to both of them. But the purpose of the attitude and the direction he's giving is expressed. And I think we can miss that. And before we talk about just what this means, I want to make sure we hit that, you know, again, Paul talks about why prophesying is better, just because it benefits others. If an unbeliever comes in during prophesying, they're going to be convicted of sin and fall down and worship God, exclaiming, God's really among you. And I try to stop and think about that, what did that look like? Where unbelievers would walk in and like fall on their knees and say, God is here God is with you. And somehow I don't think just an order of a woman's saying something or not saying something is going to be what causes an unbeliever to walk in and say God is here. But there's something incredible going on, know that for an unbeliever to come in while everyone is prophesying and say God is here. You know, I don't know what that would look like. Maybe it's good to think about what that might look like for us today where it would have such an impact. But, again, Paul assumes, you've just asked the question about why does he say women should be silent? You know, first, some background again, he assumes that when the church comes together, everybody contributes Right. And, again, maybe we can rethink some of how we do church so that everyone contributes. Maybe that's another discussion for another time. But whatever happened in the assembly, something is present, something is very visible, that should bring people to their knees, that God is real. And worship is all about God. It's not about people being competitive or taking over or divisive in any ways. But the Corinthian church contributed with helms words of instruction, Revelations, tongues or interpretation. The men and women both did this. Again, in chapter 11, verse form five, the women were prophesying right. And so something about what he's saying to women, and the silence he's asking for, apparently has to do with the disorder and using spiritual gifts. That was an issue that Paul needed to address this specifically in disorderly speech. And so you know, this is a different from the the silence that the word, the Greek word that used in First Timothy two, that's more about an attitudinal silence, the silence the word mentioned in First Corinthians 14 is actual not talking. And so, again, there's something very specific going on that we're, I don't think we really know, we don't know exactly what law he's talking about. We don't really know what the specific issue was, seems like there was something that was causing disgrace to husbands. Certainly, that was causing division and disorder. But Paul needed to address with the men and the women, the disorder and using the spiritual gifts, he gives us instruction, that there shouldn't be more than three speakers at any time, men and women, and for them to speak one at a time and with interpreter in verse 27. He says, If anyone, and that anyone would be including men and women, If anyone speaks in a tongue to and no more than three said, Speak, and then he says all should prophesy in turn, so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. And again, remember, that's a goal. His goal is that God will be glorified and that the church will be instructed and encouraged. And again, this is a service that looks very different from the ones we're used to today.

Corina Espejo: 14:54

So there seems to be a context here, but we're not sure what it is. When you read verses 28 to 30. And it's hard, because you're mentioning right? There's no real context of what was happening, what the issue was and why this was said. But do you get the impression that this is absolute silence or circumstantial? And you know what I'm asking that, but you've kind of already answered it. Because we saw in First Corinthians 11, five, that women spoke, they prophesied right in some way. We see it here, this okay, if someone, right not if a man prophesied if somebody prophesize quantitating, a man or a woman would do that. So, as the last says, Let's maybe go down to that. So we're thinking this is more circumstantial, but then it says, as the law says, so when we see that, what does that mean? What do you think they're referencing there? Which law? What are we talking about here?

Jeanie Shaw: 15:49

You know, I have looked this up, studied it. And I don't know that anybody has an answer for that. It's not the, you know, there's nothing that talks about this in the Mosaic Law. We don't know all the Greco Roman laws. Some we do. Certainly, there were household codes. In those household codes, there were restrictions for women. But we don't know if this is again, what that law is referring to, and what it is, they should be asking their husbands at home about now, we also know that women weren't generally educated. And we're going to see, when we look at Timothy, there was a lot of false teaching that happened with women. Now, this is a different church, a different situation. And you know, there was some silence thing then because of false teaching that was going on. But it seems like this was more of a situation where they were interrupting or correcting their, their husbands and where it was disgraceful, but some kind of more of an outburst, just disrespectful in nature, but was certainly not benefiting the order of the church, or just the whole Glory to God. It was more, you know, a lot of times when people are interrupting, it's self focused. It's not for the benefit of others. And so again, I think the very fact that scholars have looked at this passage for time and time again, and don't really know the answer to this question. I've never read something that's the definitive Oh, this is what this means. Most scholars are convinced that it does have some specific situation in mind that Paul is dealing with, again, that, that we don't know all the implications of that. But yeah, you know, it's just a reason why I think because of this, we can't base our whole theology on something that's so disputed. And we're unsure of and why we have to be so respectful of of each other, and really try to, to figure what is the big picture of what's going on, so that we can try to gain unity as much as possible and not just nitpick? Well, I know what means this, or this means this or you know, again, on first reading, if you were just taking the literal pattern mystic hermeneutic, for this verse, you would think there it is. Yeah, women have to be silent in the church says it clearly. But what do you do with the other things that he's talked about? What do you do with the instructions on what women are to do when they aren't giving word of instructions and men are to do when they're giving words of instructions when they're singing when they're when they're praying? So we know from that it has to be some specific situation, it can't be the overall thing because otherwise, you everything he is instructed earlier in the letter and chapter 11. And what he's already said, and assuming and the earlier part of this chapter, it doesn't really add up. It doesn't make sense.

Corina Espejo: 19:16

Yeah. I had a thought, as you were talking. Was it customary in the temple in the places of worship for women to be there? Let's say before Jesus, was that customary for women to be in those public readings as public assemblies

Jeanie Shaw: 19:31

in different places, there was it was more customary than others. And again, it it started changing. It seems like it was customary here because of the way that they were talking about what they did together, for sure. On some of the earlier Jewish synagogues, there was a separate place for the women. You know, again, that that very that changed. There were nuances to that.

Corina Espejo: 19:54

Yeah. And the reason I asked was I'm even thinking about we talk about the story of Mary and Martha and it's like, hey, that's the Men are there to learn, you're here to kind of do the rest of these other things and leave that. Leave that there. And she's saying, No, she's choosing to learn from me. She's choosing to be at my feet, and that's okay. So my one thought was okay, I wonder if there was an etiquette right, that women may have had to learn if this was a new place for them while we're here, we get to be here. And they might have to learn some etiquette, right? I wonder, too. Was it customary even for the men to ask questions in the middle of things happening? I don't know if that that question makes sense. But was it typical and wasn't expected for the men to be able to say, Hey, hold on a second, I got a question. I need to learn something and stop everything happening?

Jeanie Shaw: 20:42

I don't know the answer to that question. But I do know that they were interrupting each other here. And that they were out of order, because of what what he was speaking about. With that, you know, it's interesting, I have, within the past several years, even been in situations where women, even in meetings, have brought something up that maybe was not popular, or maybe went a little against the grain. And it was discussed later, she needs to be kind of keep it under control and and talk to her husband about that at home. And so I think it just shows that there has been a and again, I'm not, yes, there are things we can be disruptive and meetings and, you know, still be out of place men and women, things that are, you know, would be better talked about in another situation. But I think this has had deep implications for a woman's place in the service in the assembly to be silent. And again, it is over the years, even in restoration history, it's taken many different forms. You know, there were times when, you know, women were able to speak and teach. But as soon as they were teaching a class and a boy turned 12, then they weren't able to do that anymore, or a dad couldn't come listen to his daughter give some kind of instruction, or, you know, women couldn't pray, and a mixed group. And we see right after Jesus was resurrected, the men and women went up to pray. But it's been used for all kinds of things, when, again, I think that's where we try to find the blueprint, or the pattern, instead of the bigger picture of Jesus, and what what is it like to be like Jesus knew Jesus was more concerned about building up others, he was concerned about loving, about putting others above himself, he laid down his life for them. And again, this kind of behavior of disruptiveness interrupting each other, you know, my gift is more important, what I have to say is more important, it just doesn't show the glory of God. We've probably been in situations where we've tried to talk to someone and every second, you know, they're interrupting with their opinion, or even listening. It's just gathering what they're gonna say next. And you come away, not feeling very loved. And I love the way Jesus has so many interactions, you know, he he heard, he looked at people and loved them. He very carefully listen to what they said. They were saying he knew it was in their hearts. And he always had just the right response. And Paul, in all of his letters, he's pointing people to be more like Jesus, to be more Christ, like, in the way that they're transformed. And and that's one of my, I don't know, frustrations or fears is that when we focus on this pattern, making sure we're you know, it's like we're on a tightrope, making sure we don't step to the side of it. So many times we can be so focused on, am I on the type of rather than who we're walking towards, and whose arms are there to greet us and who's walking with us, and can miss the transformation of our hearts and our souls for looking at the I don't know the letter of the law in some ways. And by saying that, I think these things are important. This is the Word of God. So I don't, I don't want to take these things lightly. It's important. What Paul says is important, what the Word of God says. But again, what is the heart that the Paul is trying to convey? What is the specific situation that he's dealing with, that he's addressing and some of these things are because we weren't there, we just have to gather what we can. And people will come to some different views on what happened. But I think there are some things we can be sure of. And that is that women were participating in hymns, words of instruction, you know, praying, the singing, interpreting tongues. And so I don't know what it means that what law he was talking about. I don't know what was happening. And I don't think any of us know what was happening in those interruptions as to why Paul said, Ask your husbands at home. But we know that whatever was happening in the service, the disorder was not honoring to God, and it was something that wasn't going to cause any unbeliever to walk in and say, God is here with them. And that's what I want my demeanor. I want my participation in the worship, how I sing, how I pray, how I talk, I want it to be where somebody say, God was here. The focus was God. God was honored here. And I think that's what Paul was concerned about here. God being honored.

Corina Espejo: 26:18

I mean, that makes sense. I think it's good. When we look at these two verses, what you're saying is, okay, there is something circumstantial, and we don't know what it is. So this is where, you know, those who are drawn to blueprint hermeneutic Be careful, right? Be careful that we're not trying to draw too much of what to do and how to imitate this church, when we actually don't know the context that it sat in. And there are going to be pieces, that if you're not careful, you're going to be demanding something in that public worship place that's not consistent with other verses and other commands that that's in Scripture for women and for men. So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. It's just, it's just to be careful, right? Be careful and make sure that you're staying true to the whole theme and the full narrative of what God is saying here. So one other thing that that stands out, and for those, you know, the single women, those young women, people who are not married or even widows, they're going to look at this, and they're gonna say, okay, yeah, especially for me, what do I do with this? I'm not married, right? Is there something there for them to take away? Because, you know, again, they're not married, so it can feel like this has nothing to do with me. Like I think about scriptures that have to do with circumcision. I think this is not for me, that has nothing to do with me. This is not a decision to be circumcised or uncircumcised. It's skip right over it right. But then miss, you know, some of the heart of what it's saying. Do you have any any word or thoughts for those women?

Jeanie Shaw: 27:45

Well, again, I think because there's something specific where they're disgracing. It seems like their husbands by what they're doing, hey, I don't have to worry about that one. But I think what we can all take away is that whatever we do you in the worship is to glorify God, and to not push our own agenda, our own self focus, and to put others before ourselves. And, wow, if we did that, when we came to worship, if we came to worship with all my art, I'm going to glorify God, and my singing with all my heart, I'm going to seek to build others up. I'm going to consider how to stir others to love and good deeds, I'm going to use the gifts that God has given me and not suppress them so that I can build up the body of Christ. Everybody, men, women, single married, has gifts given them by God specifically for the building up of the Body of Christ. And again, whether we're single or married, whether we're male or female, I think using them Paul's directive here would be very clear use them to build others up, use them to encourage others use them to the glory of God. And when we do that, people are going to see something. That's not the norm. They're gonna see Whoa, God, this is different. God is here.

Corina Espejo: 29:18

You have anything to add Travis before we jump into our takeaways?

Travis Albritton: 29:22

No, no, this is great. This is really great. It was wonderful getting to sit on the sidelines and we hope

Corina Espejo: 29:28

and those of you Yes, yes. Yeah, everybody we praying for Travis hopefully by the time this this gets published, Travis will be fully recovered. But say a little prayer for Travis. This stomach. Yes.

Jeanie Shaw: 29:41

Yeah. Oh, I have to tell you a little story on this. I had to stop. I was laughing a little bit during this podcast because port Travis he's sick and still doing this and was trying to get some nutrition from a popsicle, and I thought he was eating a hot dog.

Corina Espejo: 29:59

It looks like our Raw hot dog looks like a raw hot dog

Jeanie Shaw: 30:03

making me feel sick. I love it. We're glad it was a popsicle. Travis. Yes, yes,

Corina Espejo: 30:10

it was a very look. After we know that, yeah. Well, I've enjoyed this not just the funny moments of popsicle versus hot dog. But I think this is a really, really meaty scripture. And I like just being able to say, Okay, wait a minute, let's come back to the theme. Let's make sure whatever you read, whatever we pull whatever practicals or doctrine we pull that it stays to the heart of what we're seeing, at least within the letter, but of course, within the Bible narrative as a whole. So for me some takeaways, and hopefully, this is going to be encouraging no matter who you are single, married male, female, I hopefully it'll be encouraging no matter what. What I'm seeing in First Corinthians 14, it's really about offering a place of worship, where everybody can be strengthened. And that's going to require a bit of peace in order. Our teens, they say, you know, don't get lost in the sauce, right? You need a little bit of that peace in order. So people don't get lost in the sauce. Because ultimately, you want them to focus on God, you want a place where they can focus on God, and not on us not on, you know what we're saying? Or our learning or what we've our questions. No, no, keep the peace. Keep the order so that the people who come in can focus on God, which, hey, I think I can do that I can try and do that. Help our worship services, right, help our time together. Be a place where people can think about Christ. Well, thank you, Jeannie. Thank you so much. And for those of you who are listening again, go back to previous episodes. These chunks that were biting off they build so you've got to be able to go back and definitely go to women church podcast.com for the newsletter, I can't wait to see you all next time.