#10. Teaching with Authority

In this episode, author and teacher Jeanie Shaw joins the podcast to break down 1 Timothy 2 and help us understand how to interpret "teaching with authority," whether the problem is that teachers are women or that what they're teaching is inappropriate.

Grab your copy of "The View From Paul's Window: Paul's Teachings on Women" by Jeanie Shaw.

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Transcript

Travis Albritton: 0:01

Welcome back to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look at what the Bible teaches about women in church for the ICOC in Corina Jeannie, we've made it to the episode that people actually care about. Oh, yeah. So chances are, when you started turning into this podcast, you were, I don't know if you know, hanging on pins and needles is adequate to describe the anticipation and the excitement about First Timothy to a passage everyone loves, you know, writes in cursive letters and puts on wall art in their homes, right alongside Jeremiah 2911. Put up First Timothy two baby. But this is this has become the passage synonymous with the question of women's roles in the church, that whenever someone brings forth the question about women's roles, what that should look like what the Bible teaches, this is one of the first passages that we go to, and for obvious reasons, because it seems to be directly addressing that question. Now, if you have jumped straight to this episode, I would encourage you, after you listen to it, because you're a human being with agency, and you can make your own choices, to go back and listen to the episodes before this. Because when you do this episode, and the things we talked about, will make a lot more sense, because we've been building to this point, to have the toolkit necessary to do a thorough job understanding what First Timothy two is talking about. So Jeannie Corina, you ready to jump in headfirst and see what kind of damage we could do?

Jeanie Shaw: 1:35

Let's go. Let's do it.

Travis Albritton: 1:38

Alright, Corina, why don't you go ahead and read the passage for us. So let's read verse eight through 15. And hey, maybe this will be a really short episode. You know, for the first time in human history, this will just make sense right off the bat. And we can just read it as is, and pack up and go home. Fingers crossed. Corina, why don't you do a lovely reading for us?

Corina Espejo: 1:59

Sure. First Timothy two starting in verse eight says, Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. I also want the women to dress modestly with decency and propriety adorning themselves not with elaborate hairstyles, or gold pearls, or expensive clothes, but with good deeds appropriate for women who profess to worship God, a woman should learn and quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man, she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first than Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and became a center. But women will be saved through childbearing. If they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Travis Albritton: 2:44

Yeah, so I don't think we can get away with just reading this and then calling it a day. There's, there's all kinds of weird stuff in here. That to our modern Western ears is like, Paul, what are you getting that? What? What is childbearing have to do with salvation? What is this obsession with holding your hands in the air at all times in in every place? What do you have against braids? Are you like not a frozen fan? Is like a thing. So I guess we have some more work to do, Jeannie?

Jeanie Shaw: 3:13

I guess so I guess. So. It's not that simple. But it's not that difficult. Well, I take that back.

Travis Albritton: 3:21

Well, let's let's just start with this question. Jeanie. Why has this passage caused so much controversy? Not only in our church fellowship, but in churches for centuries?

Jeanie Shaw: 3:31

Well, part of it is we've talked about we're speaking to a situation we don't fully know the situation, it's a different culture, a different time. It's a letter to a specific situation. But I think, you know, these verses, they're difficult to understand, right? And they do several things for us. And I think we have to think about what they do for us, they can humble us, causing us to realize how much we really don't know, and respect each other's thoughts and views. Or on the other hand, they can cause us to become dogmatic and divided thinking, you know, it says it here, this is what it is. This is so what's your problem kind of thing. Even in your resources section, there are two short videos of two of today's most widely respected scholars in tea right, and Timothy Keller, and in those short little videos, they espouse completely opposing views. And that's just very common in the scholarly world today. There are different views on what this means. And my prayer, honestly, is that all these discussions can just really proceed with love for each other. And that that's what we'll we'll focus on more than anything. But you know, I have spent of late honestly countless hours this year, digging into restoration history. I'm actually writing my dissertation on the relationship between interpretation and spiritual formation. And I'm beginning with the effect of pattern ism, or this blueprint theology, we've talked a little about the effect it has on spiritual formation. But this is really the prevailing hermeneutic used by the restoration movement. And while many would feel like, oh, no, we don't use that today, there's still a lot of, there's still a lot of viewing scripture through the microscope, and in a scientific way alone that we that we use, it's still active today. Because I do think when we look for a pattern, which this is how so many have looked at this verse, okay, what is the pattern here? That's for us today? Still, because it says it here, when we look for the pattern, which honestly looking for a pattern can be helpful, or it can not be helpful. But when we fail to see the bigger theological picture of the redemption of God, through Jesus, we'll focus, I think, a lot more on getting the pattern, right. Just like I talked about last week, the way I scrutinized the classified ads when I was proofreading, you know, I gotta get this right. And it's so easy. We do want to get it right, right. It's the Bible, we want to be careful with what God has done. And even while our restoration fathers originally sought unity, and wanted to unite over the things that were clearly in the Bible, this method of interpretation always led to division. Because there's so many middle steps of inferences that we all employ, in our interpretation. You we and as I mentioned, I think in talking about Romans 16, we, we view them differently through the lenses that we have our presuppositions, and we really can't get away from that we bring into the scriptures, these things we bring in ourselves our own interpretation. You do I do, we all do. And so that's why it's it's really difficult. And because people have so many different lens and use different methods of interpretation on things that aren't clear, I believe that's why there's been so much controversy on these scriptures.

Corina Espejo: 7:28

So the stone Campbell movement and those who are like, what is the restoration movement, so we're talking late 1700s, to the 1800s, right, stone Campbell movement. So if you're wanting to look that up, that's what Jamie's referring to. Let's talk a little bit more about what we do know and just the cultural background of Ephesus.

Jeanie Shaw: 7:47

Well, Paul wrote the letter to Timothy here who was an Ephesus between at 62 and 66. And we know just from what we read, as we start reading and Timothy that in Ephesus, they were dealing with myths they were dealing with genealogies, speculative intellectualism, controversies, all kinds of high sounding nonsense, and you can look back at chapter one, verse four, and verses six and seven and chapter six and verse 20. For those, they were dealing with asceticism, laying down special laws, like food laws forbidding marriage, listing many things is impure. That's in chapter four, failing to provide for one's family and chapter five greed gathering money from false teaching. Six, verse five, denying the resurrection quarreling men taking advantage of weak willed women Gnosticism these were some of the just really wonderfully wonderful things going on. And Ephesus, there were a lot of things going on. This is also in the culture, where the likelihood we've talked about some of the new roman woman. If scholars are right about this phenomenon, this would have been a factor in the modesty instructions. You another factor about Ephesus, the church Paul is referring to in his letter to Timothy is the dominance of the goddess Artemis. And I want to say something about that because I think we can brush over that pretty quickly and not think oh, you know, big deal. But we can note the influence this cult following had in Acts chapter 19. And, you know, the letter to Timothy was penned probably about a decade before Luke wrote acts. So this cult worship is still probably quite a thing. I want to read something from Acts 19 some verses from there because just try, maybe even close your eyes as I read this, try to picture what is going on here, right? When I read the Bible, sometimes I try to picture like a movie. You know what is happening here what's going on? In Acts 19, beginning in verse 19. A number who'd practice sorcery brought their scrolls together and burn them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total had come to 50,000 drachmas. Now, here's something going on. You know in Ephesus as an aside, a drachma was a day's wage, and in today's monetary value, this would have been worth about $4 million. That's the value of the scrolls on sorcery. I mean, so there's, there's some stuff going on. But then, in verse 20, in this way, the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power. After all this had happened, Paul decided to go to Jerusalem passing through Macedonia and Acadia, after I've been there, he said, I must visit Rome also, he said two of his helpers Timothy and harassed us to Macedonia while he stayed in the province of Asia a little longer. About that time, there arose a great disturbance about the way a silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis brought in a lot of business for the craftsmen there. He called them together along with the workers and related trades and said, you know, my friends that we receive a good income from this business. And you see in here how this fella Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus, and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that God's made by human hands are no Gods at all. There's danger that not only our trade will lose his good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself who is worshipped throughout the province of Asia, and the world will be robbed of her divine majesty. When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting great as Artemis of the Ephesians. And soon the whole city was in an uproar. The people sees Gaius and Aristarchus Paul's travelling companions from Macedonia and all of them rushed into the theater together. Paul wanted to appear before the crowd but the disciples wouldn't let him even some of the officials of the province friends of Paul cinema message begging him not to venture into the theater. The assembly was in confusion, some were shouting one thing some another. Most of the people didn't even know why they were there. The Jews in the crowd pushed Alexandria to the front, they shouted to him, he mentioned he motioned for silence in order to make a defense before the people. But when they realized he was a Jew, they all shouted in unison for about two hours. Great is Artemis of the Ephesians the city clerk quieted the crowd and said fellow Ephesians doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image which fell from heaven. Now, I don't know about you, but when I read that thing, ah, you know that temple worship of Artemis, it definitely had some influence and the church there. And you know, Artemis she was the goddess of fertility and worshipers, even young girls as they worshipped her they were known as a door nurse. Artemis was a man hater, and the cult following taught the insignificance of men and even denied that they were created first. And you in this passage of Scripture, not in Acts 19. But in First Timothy two, there are several contested points. Now the point about modesty is not so much contested, because most scholars agree that is speaking of non ostentatious modesty. You're not how low something is tight something is but not showing off wealth. Now should modesty of dress for sexual purity be taught? Yeah, I think so. But not from the Scripture, probably for many other scriptures. But the context of this instruction about modesty is more about wealth and ostentatious behavior. And however, the most conservative and pattern mystic interpretations would forbid women to wear gold, pearls, expensive clothes are up dues. You know, just reading it as the Bible says it right there.

Corina Espejo: 14:03

What do you think are some of the most confusing or even just contested parts of this particular passage?

Jeanie Shaw: 14:10

Well, I think the thought of what does it mean to teach and assume authority? Are they two words? So they mean the same thing? Now most people think teaching has some authority. But what does that mean? That was? What does it mean to assume authority? Because many contests that teaching assumes authority. So that's why women shouldn't teach where they're men, then the meaning of authority comes in often to the word for that. And then Paul's use of creation order. I think those are some really confusing things that come in and contested things. Why are those there? Because honestly, when you first read it, I mean, it's like what Wait, what is going on here? You know, because honestly, the literal blueprint reading would state that women can't teach in any authoritative way. They would also teach they can't wear gold or pearls or have any kind of elaborate hairdos, these kinds of things. But you what does this mean that women, about women and teaching is teaching the authority of Scripture is at one's own authority? We can speculate and differ on what this means. We can ask. Okay, so should a woman must a woman carefully speak so as to only share, as I'm sharing in the first person? Well, for me, this means versus, you know, the Bible teaches here, can a woman teach like that? You personally, I had both been taught and taught for years, the importance of speaking as a woman in the first person. And just before I really studied this out, and my views have, have shifted since then. And, you know, again, even in our churches, when speaking in a mixed group, we've practiced for many years in marriage and parenting retreats. And we've kind of even made some jokes about this, the women will say, Okay, I'm just talking to the women here. And the men have even make jokes about Okay, guys, close your ears, make sure you didn't learn anything. And you know, is that really what Paul's talking about here? And I think men generally I have no idea how difficult this is for women. And I think that's why so many women have just preferred to speak to women, for fear, she's going to be critiqued or step over the line of assuming authority based on how she says something because passion can often be acquainted with authority. And grammatically teaching and assuming authority. Either one can be correct as one phrase one word or both teaching and have authority as two distinct thoughts or one. Grammatically, we don't know, the word for authority is one that's also been discussed a lot, often to so the word authen, Teo or, you know, various forms of it, the word for authority, it's actually only used once in the Scripture right here in First Timothy. And in the Greek language, this it's a verb, it has many meanings. And one thing, just to remember is that, you know, dictionaries and lexicons weren't created before the words were used. The people who put these together had to figure out from the meanings what did this mean, and when they're used so seldom. And in this case, once, it's very difficult to know exactly what was being met. But the use of the words in their context, you know, that's what gives meaning to them. And so then we also when words are so scarcely used, we need to look for words that are close in meaning with similar roots. And there's a few of those oftentimes, I don't know how to pronounce them all. But when we're trying to understand the meaning of authenticity to it, the harshest of definitions, the word was even used for murder. Well, I think we can assume pretty assuredly, that women aren't supposed to murder men in the assembly or anywhere else, I feel really confident about that. But related words, are used for absolute control, to seize absolute power. There's a well respected scholar Ben Witherington, who's done a good bit of work on this and he sheds a good deal of light on this word. One of the things he mentioned, it's wasn't until after the letter to Timothy was written when the word had begin to have more of, or less of a negative meaning than simply authority over can we know for sure whether it does mean a forceful, domineering, especially concerning the context of false teaching, or an authority from creation order. We can't know for sure, thus the varied views. But the problems in the context lead me toward understanding this word, being used for seizing control in the context of the false teaching that Paul's addressing. However, if it was truly simple, it wouldn't be so controversial, right? And for me, I know I carried many suppositions into what I had fought you there are also some differing opinions among scholars about the wording of I do not permit were some language experts believe it is more accurate to interpret that phrase to say I do not now permit thus likely referring to a particular situation so context what is being met is so crucial. word meanings are crucial, but there are some times because we don't use the that word in that context, because we don't live there and speak at that time, we don't fully know. I'm just trying to go my best understanding from the things I've studied, and from the context of the actual scripture that I'm reading. But I think at the heart of the questions are several things. You was the teaching done by women, the false teaching? Was it the issue Paul was addressing so that this was a specific situation? And is not a transcending principle. But then does the reference to creation order, make it transcending? Hmm, those are some of the questions that I think have to be really studied and looked at.

Travis Albritton: 20:40

Yeah, yeah. And even just thinking about the broader themes of First Timothy, it seems like the biggest thing Paul is trying to communicate to Timothy is how to fight against false doctrine. Absolutely. And those would be those, those salvation bucket issues that we talked about, like denying the deity of Christ and, and the atoning sacrifice for sins and those kinds of things. Okay. And instead pursuing either Gnostic ideals, or pagan, ritualistic ideas, worshipping Artemis, that kind of stuff. And even in chapter one, Paul talks about two brothers in the church in Ephesus, these already kicked out for false teaching, right? Yeah. So it's not an understatement to say. This is probably in addition to Artemis, the biggest thing that Timothy is trying to wrestle with is, what do I do with all this false teaching, especially as a young leader in a larger church?

Jeanie Shaw: 21:31

Absolutely. And we'll look at that more with the context of it. Because honestly, Timothy opens with false teaching closes with false teaching instructions, fighting against it. So I think that's going to be important thing to really look at.

Travis Albritton: 21:44

So we've already kind of covered verse nine and 10, talking about posture and not being ostentatious, which is a common theme from First Corinthians. So we're lucky there that we have some familiarity with those themes in those topics. What about verse 11? This idea of well, one is just very interesting that Paul says A woman should learn. Yes. So that's something that stands out, right? Because that would not necessarily be intuitive reading into a patriarchal culture.

Jeanie Shaw: 22:11

Yes. Especially if they're like we'll talk about when he's getting ready to talk about deception. Because when you aren't educated, it's very easy to be deceived.

Travis Albritton: 22:22

Yeah. So that's interesting. But then he talks about how a woman should learn in quietness and full submission and that word, again, as a lot of modern cultural context, which is not always positive. So walk us through, what is Paul communicating to the women in the church in Ephesus, in his instruction to Timothy, what, what does this mean for them? And then what are the things that it means for us?

Jeanie Shaw: 22:46

Well, I think attitude is what this word quietness means it's different than the word for quiet. And First Corinthians 14. And we talked about last time, this is more of a, an attitude, of humility. And to me this, I think, this is what is being addressed more, a woman should learn with an attitude of humility and full submission. And this wasn't obviously happening here with what something that they were doing, I think men should learn in quietness and full submission as well. Because it's an attitude about learning. It's an attitude of humility, honestly. And so yes, I think, as you said, we contend to think that, oh, woman should learn in full submission. Absolutely. Woman should learn in humility. We are the clay, not the potter, all of humankind is the clay, not the potter. And anytime we don't learn with attitude of humility, I think there's going to be situations repeated, like Paul is addressing to Timothy here, where people are just going to town with false teachings false directive, because they haven't been humble and submissive in the way that they have learned, and have been deceived and are deceiving.

Corina Espejo: 24:05

So when we're looking at, you know, 815, Why does Paul use creation order? And what does it have to do with women authority and teaching?

Jeanie Shaw: 24:13

Well, that's a really good question. Hard question, for sure. And again, like I've said, on a lot of these questions that you've asked, I don't know for sure. I do have some thoughts. And I do want to point back to some of the previous studies even that Jason did with us where we did learn that man was not created with authority over woman. You know, they both were given dominion over the earth. But then after sin came, the fall came dominion, seemed to change to domination. And after the fall, the question of whether authority or dominance is a prescription for humankind or a description of what happens when Sen. enters the world. That's key. That's key to, to even going on with looking at how to view scriptures like this. But also you we've got some problems even just in looking at that. What does this mean creation order. Because if creation order confers authority, then honestly, realistically, the sun, the moon, the stars, vegetation, animals would have dominance, if it's all about creation order, and it seems like God was creating in ascending order of importance. Now, I'm not trying to say here that women being created last met, you know, he saved the best for last. But I will say, hey, you know, after this, God does say it's very good. But it's too quick to just say, Oh, well, men are over women, because Adam was created before Eve. I don't believe that's what being addressed. You'll God even reversed the common practice of primogeniture, or the privileges for the firstborn. I mean, we can look at Isaac and Ishmael Jacob and Esau, Reuben and Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, David and his brothers just to see some places where just because someone was born first didn't mean they got the the blessings of the firstborn, so to speak. But the question is, why would Paul employ this chronology? And again, I, like I mentioned some make assumptions. And I do say that with assumptions because they're not in the Scripture, Adam, we know this one isn't scripture was obviously created first. But the primogeniture or dominance or authority can only be implied in an interpretation. Paul never states that with meaning of male authority over women, it's just not stated in the scriptures. So it's someone's interpretation, in some suggest that Eve usurped Adams leadership. And then is saying that Paul uses this example of the dire consequences of undermining male authority, or subverting male leadership. But I think that's problematic because Paul never states that Eve subverted male authority. I mean, that's just not in there. You others teach that Paul uses Eve type illogically for deceive women. And that may be the case. Just as in Second Corinthians 11. Three, he uses it for deceived men and women. And this interpretation, Eve's deception is what is in common with those causing deception in Ephesus, and as deceive women. Paul doesn't permit them to teach. You know, there have been honestly, many teachings throughout the restoration movement, that Paul's instruction was stated because women are more easily deceived. And there's just there is nothing but conjecture in that, in fact, it's not even conjecture, because it's just studies have been done. It's just not true. It's been scientifically proven that that's not the case. Women aren't more easily deceived. And, uh, but that has been used a many times that therefore women shouldn't teach men. Actually, in Ephesians, five, six, both men and women were warned about deception. You know, and Paul does mentioned Eve Sen. But doesn't attribute sent her alone. In fact, Romans 512 attributes send Adam, I believe the only surety is, or the chronology of creation and that Eve was deceived, and Eve sinned from what we read here. And Paul's narration, it includes both creation and the fall narratives. But it seems to be a problem about deception, not a problem about authority that's being addressed, if you read that scripture and read the context, and we're going to get to the context soon. But deception is a big problem. The false teaching is a big problem that seems to be being addressed much more than a problem of who was created first and the authority that that brings it, which again, those are conjectures.

Corina Espejo: 29:08

So with us kind of digging into some of these specific points, like, you know, Paul, bringing up creation, order and Adam coming first and even thinking about deception. Is there anything else about the context of the letter that we should be thinking about, as we continue to read some of these finer points?

Jeanie Shaw: 29:26

I think the context of the letter is crucial. I really do. It's important to look at the context of First Timothy, and letter opens in First Timothy one, three and four. And then a verse 18, with instructions to Timothy to stay in Ephesus, to instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine and not to occupy themselves with Miss and endless genealogies that promote speculation rather than divine training that's known by faith. And then he says, so that you can fight the good fight, having faith In a good conscience, and we're going to get into this a little more. But I also want to mention First Timothy one, five, because that follows. And that's I was my husband's favorite scripture. The aim of our charge is love, the spring smoke, pure heart, a clear conscience and a genuine faith. And that's something important to me to realize, too. What's the aim of the charge is love. It's love the springs from a pure heart a clear conscience and genuine faith. But the topic that he's dealing with here is He's instructing them not to teach any different doctrine. The conclusion of the letter in First Timothy six, verses two to four, and then again, in verse 12, it reiterates this opening. And he tells Timothy to teach and urge these duties and whoever teaches otherwise, and doesn't agree with the sound words of our Lord. And the teaching that's in accordance with godliness, his conceited, understanding nothing and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. And then he says, fight the good fight of faith, fight the good fight of faith. And I want to attribute and thank scholar John Mark Hicks for some of his delving into this because the verb for teaching otherwise in Greek means to teach something different. And there's only two places where it's used in First Timothy, one's in chapter one and verse three, where Paul instructs people not to teach any different doctrine. And then in chapter six, near the closing, where he says, Whoever teaches otherwise that's the same verb for teaching otherwise. And I think that these openings and closing the context of this identify Paul's purpose, because as we've seen throughout the letter, Timothy in the Ephesian church is encountering a different teaching that is disturbing the church. And Chapter One is you mentioned Travis, you know, Paul, he names to false teachers and manias and Alexander who's he's turned over to Satan. And then Paul encourages Timothy to fight the good fight against Satan, in verses 18 through 20, and then again in 612. But in chapter two, Paul begins the chapter with the connecting then I urge then, first of all the petitions, prayers, intercessions. And Thanksgiving, then are therefore, would be another definition for it's a it's a letter with a continuous flow. It's not divided by chapters and verses. This is a continuous flow. And we note that Paul's instructions are grounded in the good fight going on in the church against the false teaching, because there's no wonder he encourages men to pray without anger, and then for rulers so that we might lead quiet and peaceful lives. And John Mark Hicks notes that Paul barely survived a riot in Ephesus that we read about earlier in Acts 19. But again, it's it's a flow of fighting the good fight against false teaching. Paul charges Timothy to teach the mystery of godliness in the Ephesian house churches and that Timothy is to have nothing to do with profane myths and old wives tales and old wives tales are Miss told by older women. And you know, when you start reading even keep going in chapter five is kind of interesting that Paul seems to connect this problem with some of the widows that he mentions in First Timothy five their interest in Miss, he warns of their sensuality, and going from house to house teaching nonsense, saying things they ought not to. And it seems like there was also false teaching referred to with the widows. false teaching is confronted throughout this entire letter from Paul to Timothy. So much false teaching. And given the context in what we do know about the situation in Ephesus, it's hard to imagine that Paul is just his purpose to detail a blueprint manual or church polity for all time is he writes to Timothy concerning the church in Ephesus. But more in response to false teaching. He wants Timothy to instruct believers to live godly lives is the church within the ungodly culture of Ephesus, amidst all the false teaching, live out their faith in contrast to their culture,

Corina Espejo: 34:37

in that same thought of hey, when we read something, make sure to read it in the context of the entire letter because it is one continuous thought, when we read First Timothy two verse eight, at least in the NIV. It starts with that word, therefore, like you're saying, let's talk a little bit about the verses before that verses one to four, at least within this chunk of passage. What was Why did the therefore come after verses one to four?

Jeanie Shaw: 35:03

I would think that Paul knew that situations with false teaching in such situations need a lot of prayer for one thing, the men should lift totally hands, not in anger. Now, I don't know what was going on. Again, if this was a blueprint than men would always need to lift holy hands in prayer. I'm not sure what they were angry about. But if what many scholars play most scholars think was happening in Ephesus, where women were actually taking over control of the church taking over the eldership and teaching false doctrine as they did that certainly would have been a temptation to be angry, right. And, and yet, we need prayer. But certainly this was a situation that it was not just a little, maybe the woman was too passionate, or maybe the woman used a scripture and saying something, I don't believe this is what we're talking about. I believe we're talking about women who were promoting false teaching who were taking over the church, who were taking over the eldership. Again, this is what most scholars believe, but I I respect, other views that do feel like this is more of a transcending principle, that women aren't to usurp authority. Again, my understanding of that is just that usurping authority would be like what was likely happening in Ephesus, a taking over and teaching false doctrine. It was happening with the women, I don't think that would be right for men to do that either. Where that's clear in the Bible, again, obviously wasn't right for men, because look what happened with Alexander and Romania's didn't go so well for them. But again, because it's being addressed to women, it was evidently something that was going on with the women, not surprising, given the culture that they were in.

Corina Espejo: 37:02

Yeah. And I like that word. You know, when we think about that word authentic, what you're saying is, it's not taking over meaning, hey, we're going to own some of the responsibility like an image bearer, we're going to partner with amendment no often to what you're saying is, it's more like somebody who dominates or bullies or somebody who's, you know, kind of saying, Hey, shut up and sit down, and I'm going to, I'm gonna correct what you've got wrong. You know, there's something about it. That's intimidating. Almost.

Jeanie Shaw: 37:29

Right.

Travis Albritton: 37:30

Yeah. And, and if I want to jump in and pull a transcending principle from that, there's certainly been periods in our own church history, where the leadership that we entrust to shepherd our members have acted in that way. Right, and we have corporately repented, are continuing to repent from that. And that is a lesson we should absolutely take and move forward with which is that type of domineering, bullying, abusive leadership of we're gonna grow. Even at your own at your expense, hop on the bus or get run over by it. Yeah, is not the kind of leadership that Jesus would espouse, or model or encouraged in the church. So, yes. So if you're looking for something really practical, if you're a leader, make sure you lead like Jesus would. And not in a way that is, is domineering and abusive. So hopefully something everyone can agree on. From this page.

Jeanie Shaw: 38:29

It's, you know, to have that kind of leadership are that kind of authentic views is it's not right for men or women. But obviously, as mentioned, the problem in Ephesus evidently has to do with false teaching among women.

Corina Espejo: 38:44

I appreciate us talking about this more. I know for me when I learned what this word meant a very, Travis, thank you for the practical question I asked myself because when I read the definition, when when you look at the Greek Lexicon, one of the definitions for authenticity is one who with their own hands, kills another or themselves and almost in a sense, saying, Hey, I'm going to rob you of the identity God has given you to further the gospel to follow Jesus. And I think that's a some verbiage I've used is Corina, okay, with what you're doing? Are you robbing somebody of who God created them to be? When I learned what this word was? I was okay. This is something because I think it's something easy for all of us to do. But for me, specifically, I want to make sure I'm taking the plank out of my own eyes on the way I'm talking to people are serving them or working with others. Am I stepping over them? Am I robbing them of their opportunity to be image bearers? And so yeah, great questions. Great practical. Thank you, Travis. Anything else you want to mention about these verses one to four?

Jeanie Shaw: 39:50

Well, the only other thing I would just say is an inverse three or verse four. Paul, is he does so many places he reminds says that he wants all people to be saved, and to come to a knowledge of the truth. And again, this was just an overarching principle. I think that Paul states many times. And certainly, as we talked about last week, the church in Corinth, if someone comes in to a service, and women are taking over teaching false doctrine, that's certainly not going to help all people to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. It's very much in opposition to that. And again, if I believe God was really teaching me in the scriptures to that this was the case that I was not to teach men because that would be abusing authority. That would be God. I'm okay with that. I just don't think that's what, personally, I don't think that's what's being said. But again, we each have to wrestle with it, we have to gain our own understanding, and our own consciences on it. Because it is hard to understand. We don't have the cold of Artemis for one thing, we have other things for sure. We have other kinds of all kinds of false teachings that go on. But in any situation, where a sister or brother for that matter, tries to take over the leadership with false teaching is bad. It was bad for Alexander and him and as and, you know, it was bad for the women who were doing this that Paul was addressing, and First Timothy two.

Corina Espejo: 41:35

Yeah, I love that we're talking about the pieces before it because it goes along with some of these bigger themes biblically. Right? So we need God to pray. First of all right? First of all, pray, bring your prayers petitions before God, why? Because you need God. And then for all people, because why the gospel is for everyone. And that gospel that sits on Jesus, right, it's about God, it's not about us. And I like that we're talking about obviously, the cautions in this. But I also think it's great that we, we also talk about what to do the affirmations. So yeah, I love that. Can we dive back into some of these more difficult pieces, the smaller difficulties? Okay. What in the world? Does it mean, when we're speaking about us, she will be saved through childbearing.

Jeanie Shaw: 42:26

A million dollar question, right? Yeah, there's a number of thoughts on this. And there are some interesting ones, some that that could be a couple of the we know, it doesn't mean we know that doesn't mean a woman who doesn't have children can't be saved. We know that. We know that it doesn't mean that a woman who was a godly woman won't die in childbirth, you know, again, a literal reading of that scripture could make us think that right if we didn't look at the context, or dig further, some of the most prevalent explanations I have seen, I'll mention three. One is that I mentioned the new woman influence, and there was a tremendous negativity toward pregnancy, nursing a child because of what it did to a woman's figure. And even just some of the negativity toward having children to begin with. There are some who thought oh, maybe that could be addressing the influence that the new woman had on this time. Some have also felt that because Artemis was also the goddess of childbirth. Women prayed to her for safety and childbearing, he or she was an idol. And perhaps in this idolatrous situation, Paul's reminding that Artemis is not Christ. She's not to be looked to or prayed to for safety and childbearing. And, you know, there's some certain plausibility in that because I can imagine if this is a deep rooted superstition, that it'd be hard for women to not pray to her for safe labor. I mean, like, Oh, my goodness, if I don't do that, then just might be detrimental to my child or to me. I mean, we can think that's crazy. But we have superstitions today, you know, how many people don't change their socks or underwear when their favorite sports team is playing? And is one when they you know, seriously? A superstitions that Oh, can't do that. There's silly things, but that can get into our heads, right? Is superstitions a certain ways we do things we don't want to dispel. And I just mentioned that because this was evidently a thing if she was the goddess of childbirth. Maybe Paul was assuring them. She's not Jesus. It's okay to let her go. Are Some have also felt that she refers to Eve? And you mentioned this earlier, Travis that she'll be saved by, instead of childbearing? The birth of the child Jesus, and could be referring to the prophetic, your hero will strike his head, or his head will strike your heel, that Jesus is the one who can overcome all of sin, all of false teaching all of every he is the one to be praised, he is the one we're worshipping. And so another fairly popular view is that she will be saved through the birth of the child, Jesus meaning Eve, and then all people saved through the birth of the child. So those are, I would say, the three common ones. And which one is right. I don't know.

Corina Espejo: 45:42

The speech language pathologists in me is like, Ah, if only I was there to like, hear somebody read this. So I can hear tone of voice, I could hear body language because in your second and third explanation, I read verse 15, differently, right? I read it and I think okay, let's say it's this the second explanation, right? He's trying to speak through a this common myth, you know, that childbearing having children will save you somehow through this, you know, theology of Artemis, right, so I read it I think yet she will be saved to Charlie childbearing if they continue in faith in love and holiness. And I read it as like, okay, okay, you have children, but that's not really what's gonna save you what's really gonna save you is but then the pause and the and the if you know, but you can't read that here right? And then you have that third explanation It's okay. Yet she will be saved she right then maybe a little bit more emphasis on she yet she will be saved their childbearing if they the offspring, right? They continue in faith and love and holiness with. So it's just so interesting. I'm like, oh, man, the SLP The linguist in me is like, Man, I wish I could hear Paul save this with his own self.

Jeanie Shaw: 46:52

Yes, don't we all? Yeah, yes.

Travis Albritton: 46:55

100%. This is probably the, in studying this question. These few verses are the ones that I spent the most time with, simply because they don't just have implications for the question at hands about can a woman preach to a mixed audience on a Sunday, they can have very deep theological implications for how we think about God, for how we think about our identity. Yeah, in Christ as in as bearers, right. And something that has stuck with me. And to genies point, I can't say with 100% certainty that this is what Paul is communicating. But it does resonate to a certain extent that makes sense and kind of harmonizes a lot of the questions that I have, in my mind, it's helpful to know, Paul was very Jewish. There's the Pharisees trained in Gamaliel. He was one of the foremost thinkers of his age before he converted to Christianity. And then after that became very influential in Christianity. And something that Paul often carries over from his first medical training, is the style of teaching that these rabbis would do, which is where they would refer to stories in the Old Testament, picking dots out of them, and expecting the students to connect those dots to reach the conclusion they're leading them to. And so they would take these really odd, seemingly random pieces of stories, and constructing them in a way that would drive the student or the listener to a certain conclusion on their own. But that wouldn't be something the rabbi would tell them, right, they would make them go searching for it, like a treasure hunt. And if you read verse 13, through verse 15, without stopping, what we see is Paul is actually doing that. He's taking Genesis one through three. And he's picking out these details linearly in the story, to contextualize it to the problem at hand, which is this false doctrine that these women are teaching. And so if we read that we see, he's really just kind of recounting the story, as he goes, saying, you know, Adam was for was formed first and Eve, Adam was not the one to see that was the woman who was deceived, and became a sinner, but she referring to Eve, will be saved through the childbearing, referring to Genesis three. And it's almost as if Paul is saying, Remember the story in Genesis, where this happens? Remember, when there was another false assumption about who God is, and what his expectations are and what what true doctrine is core doctrine is, remember the outcome of that. Remember that when you're thinking about confronting this issue in front of you, because if we just read this, as Genie, you so eloquently put it as Paul offering a fresh interpretation on the true meaning of Genesis. He's not a very good Old Testament scholar then, because the conclusions he's drawing are directly counter to the conclusions you would draw if you just read Genesis on its own. And Paul is very much aware of this. You know, he knows what Genesis means. He knows about Genesis teaching, he knows the big themes of image bearing and all the other things that come thereafter, he's fully aware that primogeniture is not a consistent theme, positive theme in the book of Genesis. He's fully aware of that. So then why would he do this? Why would he drop these breadcrumbs. And what's really, I think, mind blowing is how he lands on 15. He says, At the end of the story, remember this, she will be saved through the childbearing that even though there is a deception that happened that led humankind astray, it is not a forever thing, that someday, a child from this woman will crush the head of this serpents. And it just connects the dots to so many other larger themes that we see in the New Testament, about the Kingdom of God, about the atoning work of Jesus, you know, and how, because of Jesus's sacrifice and resurrection, he has destroyed this, the sin of Adam has completely overcome sin and death. And so when we have to ask, well, then what remains of the fallen nature of Genesis three, for the people of God, for the people that are striving to bring the kingdom of God to Earth? Do we still have to go out and change our careers to agriculture and work really, really hard to make our food because that's what Adam had to do after he sinned? And so those are all questions to consider, and all other data points to help us contextualize. Not just what is Paul trying to communicate to Timothy? But then what would it mean for us, holistically, trying to understand what does it mean to honor God with how we do community together? What does that look like to honor one another, to practice one another scriptures to and with each other? Right, that that's something we haven't dug into all those one another passages? They're not just for men's right. All right. So when it says admonish one another, applies to women as well, I

Jeanie Shaw: 52:00

think one another, I think you're a one another.

Travis Albritton: 52:04

And so while it is easy to laser focus on a handful of hotly contested passages, to come away with an answer, because it seems like that's the clearest, most straightforward path to getting to the answer we're looking for. We have to be careful that we don't draw too many inferences, and make too many assumptions that aren't actually there and, and don't don't harmonize with everything else that we read in the Bible.

Jeanie Shaw: 52:27

That's a great point, I think, well said,

Corina Espejo: 52:30

I have a proposition A fun proposition. Earlier, a couple episodes back, we tried on all the different tools that we've talked about at least three of the different types of hermeneutics, right? I wonder if it would be beneficial, just to briefly and maybe all three of us can take on one, right? Let's read this right for looking at chapter two, at least in First Timothy, chapter two, and pulling out okay for to read this with blueprint hermeneutic properly, and I'll say it that way properly, right. What can we what can we gain? If we were to look at it with theological hermeneutic? What What can we gain, and then trajectory hermeneutic. And again, using these tools properly, not all willy nilly and inappropriately, but really staying true to what these tools can help us? gain from from Scripture. So what do we think? Are we up for the challenge? Sounds like fun, give it a whirl. Let's start I actually love to end on blueprint. Let's do trajectory first, then we'll do theological, and then we'll tackle blueprint.

Travis Albritton: 53:29

Oh, boy. All right. I'll tackle trajectory, I'll give all the same hedges that we did in that hermeneutics episode, which is handled with care. Anytime you start dipping your toe in trajectory, hermeneutic. Or you could lose your way very, very quickly. And it's also helpful to remember which trajectory hermeneutic you are staying rooted in the Scripture as you apply this hermeneutic. So you're not just using your own wisdom to create out of nothing. Alright, so I think that's another mistake we can make is, well, I think this is what the Bible should say. And so I will look for those breadcrumbs to arrive at the conclusion, I've decided is correct. So that's not how you apply it either. So it's actually really great that in this passage, Paul talks about Genesis, because in any good trajectory, hermeneutic that's where you want to start. And so we see that the entire story of the Bible is a story of creation. We have the fall, we have God's rescue plan, which culminates in Jesus. And then we have this new family of God, truly the fulfillment of what Israel should have been this nation of priests that has a light to the world, and that we're all looking forward to the coming age, where we get to be with God, and Heaven, which is going to be epic and awesome. And so where does this fit on that timeline? Where is this passage in this teaching? So it would be after Jesus, if we're thinking chronologically, and so we're trajectory. hermeneutical ask the question. Why What does it mean, to bring the kingdom of God to Earth? With these principles of standing up for sound doctrine, those core fundamental doctrines that we cannot waver from the things that define our faith, as opposed to other faiths? And asking the question, if anything has shifted between when Paul writes this in our time now, what would that shift look like? And where would we be going? And so the kinds of questions you would ask would be, if men and women are both equal image bearers, there's no Asterix attached to a woman image bearer versus a male image bear than the expectation is when we're in heaven one day, that would also be the case. Right, that if we're co rulers on Earth, that we would have that same shared status in heaven. And everything that that would imply, so then a trajectory hermeneutic could lead you to the conclusion that, yeah, for First Timothy, there are some real issues with false doctrine that Paul's addressing, and in to chapter two, he's talking to the women, but like, the whole rest of the book is talking to both men and women. And so it would make sense that, yeah, if a woman is teaching false doctrine is leading people astray, and is acting in a way that is not Christ, like with the leadership and with the church, then that woman should instead take a posture of learning with humility, until she can know what is the right doctrine. But that would not mean that a woman who was fully equipped and trained and could, could teach adequately and effectively to edify the body, that would not preclude her from doing that. In fact, that would be a really great thing, to have more perspectives, more lived experiences, more holy revelation, speaking into the congregation. So a trajectory hermeneutic with this passage, would lead you to a conclusion that this is not saying, women can't teach in church. It's rather confronting the false teaching that's going on. But for our own church practices, for our own purposes, this would not be a nail in that coffin at all. In fact, it would probably be the opposite. It'd be an encouragement that women that can teach effectively, we need to give them that opportunity. Now, again, that's the first hermeneutic we have two more, so you can drop your pitchforks. Because I'm not even saying that that's the view that I espouse. All right. So, but that is how you would apply a trajectory hermeneutic to this passage.

Corina Espejo: 57:37

That's tough one, you did it. Great. I think that's very good. All right. theological hermeneutic. And I'm just going to take this apart piece by piece, I will admit, as you were talking, Travis, I was like, Okay, what am I gonna say? I was like, no, no, let's, let's keep this candid. And Kodak, let me focus on what Travis is saying. And I'll go through this real time. All right. Looking at this just front, you know, first verse, first verse to the end of chapter two. I'm going to be looking at who is God, I'm looking at theological hermeneutic. What can I learn about God? And is it cohesive with what we know about God and in Scripture as a whole? Alright? I desire then that every place that men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger, or quarreling, how that sits within this concept of who God is because God who wants everybody to come to Him to be saved? To have the knowledge of truth? I think my first thought is, if I'm lifting, you know, not me specifically, but apparently, you know, these men, if we're calling them, hey, lift your hands, holy hands to come before God, there's something about us as you need to come before God with what you have, but the best of what you have to come and righteousness and holiness. And I think that anger and quarreling would get in the way of that it would get in the way of people seeing God, they would make me think, Oh, these two people are fighting. Who's this Joe? And who's this bill? And what are they doing? You know, I don't know, I chose those words. But it would make me think what's wrong with those guys, right? It wouldn't make me think, wow, God, when I walk into something, and I see two people quarreling, I don't think about God, I think about those two people. And so it continues on in talking about this verse 12 women and especially at that time, what we know about the context, who come in and again, it's this I am woman hear me roar in such a manner that it's dominating, intimidating bullying, right? I and this is something I know I'm a very direct person. I've got to be careful of this myself, because that is just my nature that I can be so direct, and I and I say that meaning so direct, that it really does come across like I'm saying, Hey, shut up and sit down. And I could be saying the same thing as anybody else. But with the tone of voice if I comment, I just come in giving orders because I'm all about the business. I'm a New Yorker, right time is money. But that doesn't. That's not always appropriate for the situation. And it doesn't always help people to feel like Hey, I am there's a piece here, I'm coming into something where it's about God, it's dignified. Sometimes it can make people feel like, they're, they're just a product, right? That they're just there to produce. So even in that sense to be careful, both men and women, but for women in this particular time period, to be careful not to be that person, be that woman of the time, to rob people of their purpose and their shared responsibility. So I look at all that and and you know what, I'll be honest with you. 1314 15. theological hermeneutic. I think God has I'm just gonna end on 15. Because the only certain thing that I can pull from that about what I understand about God, man, does he want us to continue in faith, love, holiness and self control. And that's consistent with the first couple of verses in chapter two, as well as the entire book, especially where we land on in chapter six. Right. So Well, I think we're on to our third one, blueprint. hermeneutic

Jeanie Shaw: 1:00:59

Yeah, so you blueprint hermeneutic as I take the scientific approach to try to figure out, okay, if I'm looking at this as a blueprint, the model for what the Bible is saying here, and wants me to imitate as it was here in the first century, it would be I will just start with where we started in verse eight, that it would be very important that as we're worshiping together, that the men when praying, lift up their hands, and certainly not be disputing with each other. And it's also very important for all time that women dress modestly. And that includes the description here, of not having elaborate hairstyles, so they need to really be careful about up dues, braids, things like that, really need to forego jewelry, and really need to make sure that their clothes aren't like the name brand expensive ones, because that's what the Bible is teaching here in this blueprint, and that that's appropriate for women who are going to profess to worship God so that, according to this by the blueprint, if a woman is wearing jewelry, elaborate hairstyles, she's definitely not professing to worship God. Because that's what the says, and then that she needs to learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to some authority over a man she must be quiet is I look at this blueprint, I would see this as a woman teaching is assuming authority over a man, if I'm just looking at it like that without some of the definition that we have, have done. And so there's really not an appropriate time. For a woman to be teaching where there are men, she must be quiet. And to not do that would not be learning and quietness and full submission. And according to the Blueprint here, the reason given is because Adam was formed first. And so there's a certain authority and privilege and the creation order, and also because Eve was deceived, and became a sinner in that. And so is that blueprint, then that's just another reason why a woman should not be teaching a man because it would be authoritative. And it was a result of who was formed first. And he being deceived. Verse 15, I'm not quite sure how to print on that. Except for she's got to continue in faith, love and holiness, with propriety, and I would probably is a blueprint define holiness and propriety with what I had just described in what she wears, and how she speaks in the audience with whom she speaks. That's sort of how I would approach it as a blueprint, and I think has been commonly approached as a blueprint. Yeah. When

Travis Albritton: 1:04:19

I think about blueprint for verse 15, I think more of like a cultural blueprint of, you know, especially connecting it to me talks about not gossiping in other places where Paul says, Hey, if you're burning with passion, go get married. That's a good thing, saying that the proper role for women, all the way back to Genesis is to be homemakers, that that is the role for women within creation. That's not a bad thing. If we don't replace the population will die out. It's not good. And so that's that's just that's what it means to honor God with your life is to settle down, have kids raise kids, and then yeah, through their legacy you're able to Yeah, you know, make disciples.

Jeanie Shaw: 1:05:03

Yes, thank you for adding that that would be important for blueprint.

Travis Albritton: 1:05:07

Now, this episode has gone super long. However, something that our astute listeners will pick up is if we apply that blueprint hermeneutic here, where it says pretty clearly like, there doesn't seem to be a lot of scenarios where women teaching would be God honoring, what are we to make of other passages? In first Corinthians like someone's we looked at where it seems like women were contributing, and speaking in a somewhat authoritative manner. Because with blueprint, you're looking to figure out where these differences overlap because they can't contradict each other, if their principles for all time that apply to us today. Then what Paul is telling First Timothy, and when he tells the church in Corinth complements each other perfectly. And so then how do you blend the expectation that women prophesy and pray in the assembly, but then also that they're quiet and learn in full submission? How would you make heads or tails of those two scriptures?

Jeanie Shaw: 1:06:02

I think I would be rethinking the hermeneutic that I use, and interpreting that because it doesn't work.

Travis Albritton: 1:06:09

Something we will have lots of fun with in the next episode.

Corina Espejo: 1:06:13

I have a quick tip, if if somebody is like, I just can't let blueprint hermeneutic go. Let's just say, I and Genie, you did a great word study for us today, even just on this word, often tail. I almost wonder, for me what helps me stay true to the Scripture. When I do a word study, if I'm going to use blueprint hermeneutic, let's say you know, I'm just looking at, you know, verse 12. When I replace the English word with the Greek word, it almost trains my brain to think back to the word study I just did and understanding the ways that that word has been used. And because things get lost in translation, we know this, any good Bible scholar knows this. So when you start to study out the word, if I say, okay, Bluefin hermeneutic, me as a woman, I cannot often tail I am strongly, you know, cautioned against that, don't permit me to authentic tail, I immediately think of what I've just learned about that Greek word, rather than hearing authority, and placing my whatever, you know, viewpoint I have, we talk about presuppositions on it. I wonder if it's helpful if you know, those of you and listen to what we're telling you be careful using blueprint hermeneutic in this passage, but let's be real, we know y'all are going to do it, because that's just what we do as humans. A quick tip. And again, pairing it with these other hermeneutics, if it can stack up against the entire theme of the Bible, or even just within the the book that you're reading the letter that you're reading, if it's an epistle, you might have better accuracy to to the meaning of the text. But that that was that's something that's been helpful for me if I'm like, I can't let it go. To say, wait a minute, what did I just learn? And then use Pattern Type thinking with it?

Travis Albritton: 1:08:02

Yeah, and blueprint isn't bad. It's not a bad hermeneutic. Yeah. Like it's very useful. And there lots of situations where we really do want to practice with the early church practice. Yeah. And that's the right thing to do so. So again, these are all tools that are designed to help us understand who God is, what it means to follow him individually, and also as a faith community. And we want to make sure that we're holistic in our approach of doing that.

Jeanie Shaw: 1:08:27

Absolutely. And I think it's so important to because even what your the word authenticity, Oh, yeah. And that's disputed, right? We don't know for sure. And so we can think we can learn from what people who've studied it mean, but again, there's different views. Well,

Travis Albritton: 1:08:47

this has been a fun episode. Hopefully, you know, even though it might have been a little brain twister for you. We didn't lose you along the way. And, you know, hopefully, that the whole goal of this podcast is really just to equip you with the tools that you need to go into your own personal Bible study on these things, you know, that none of us would claim to be the authority or the final word, on reading the Bible or following God. We just want to share the things that we've learned that have been helpful. And so hopefully, you're getting that out of this podcast. If you want to stay up to date on things that are going on in the near future with this podcast, make sure you subscribe to the newsletter, women church podcast.com. But stick around because next week, we're actually going to start drawing some conclusions from our 10 hour marathon that we've just wrapped up looking at the Bible and all these passages on women's roles, and how it applies to us in the church. So make sure you stick around for that episode, and we'll see you then.